DE 4.22 and Windows 8.1

[Shane Warnick]

I posted this on the owners forum, not sure there is as much activity on that forum as there is here, so I am also posting it here as well.

Just bought a Samson 510 and was assured that any new computer running windows 8 or 8.1 would not have any problems at all. Get this card from Softio I was told, and you will be good to go. I am sure I am not the only one in this boat. Regardless, here I am. Downgrading to windows 7 is not an option, as the computer I have will not support it due to some new BIOS requirements (from microsoft) on newer machines regarding partitioning of drives etc, as well as a lack of support for legacy drivers for new hardware. Long story short, as unimpressed as I am, looks like I will be living with it for awhile.

So, DE works fine as long as I don't initialize the table. Once initialized, the table runs and cuts great, as does the software, with one exception. The keyboard will not function once the table has been initialized. Turn the table off, and PRESTO the keyboard is back. The problem lies in the way Plasmacam has applied a patch to DE to make it function with newer computers, in that you are forcing the parallel port and software in DE to function in PS/2 emulation mode. Not normally a huge issue, until you realize that windows is doing the exact same thing to run the USB keyboard and mouse. So now you have two processes running the same emulator being routed to the same places (nodes) on the same chips. One of them loses. In my case it's the keyboard, some have mouse issues, some both, some machine issues.

Regardless, my question is this. The only way to get around this until either Microsoft or Plasmacam resolves this issue (I sure hope at least one of them is working on a fix) is to turn the table off between cuts if I need to make a design change, or do some drawing or editing that has to be precise, or settings changes. Hard to draw a 4" rectangle if you can't input the coordinates. My concern is that all this off / on and initializing is going to damage something, such as the z axis or the controller. Anyone have any input on this, or perhaps some suggestions to prevent premature wear on the z axis when it comes on or the control box?

For what it's worth, Plasmacam says I have an IRQ issue, they don't deal with those issues, call in some IT guys. Ok, so I did. Not so says 3 different IT consultants. Softio (the maker of the parallel card) insists that the plasmacam controller is not properly isolated electrically and that a ton of grounding is needed to minimize noise / feedback to the card to prevent this. I might buy this if it wasn't already grounded out the wazoo AND I was having repeated (I have had zero) com errors with the table during cutting, or if the software was only wacky when someone else in the shop was welding etc.

Thanks in advance for your time on this, I know its quite the long read, but my frustration is perhaps more than evident. I have been beaten into accepting it at this point I just don't want to damage anything if I can keep from it. Thanks again,
Shane

[weldor2005]

Shane,

Not sure how much you have explored the owners forum, or this one, but I have posted similarly to this on both sites. Only difference is that it is windows 7 and not 8.

I was told much like you that it is probably an IRQ issue, looked into that, changed some settings and still no keyboard like you say. In fact I keep two mouse (mice?) both USB plugged into it as one of them will get knocked out as well. all of my devices are USB powered, I have (2) mice, (1) keyboard, (1) USB wireless internet adapter from belkin. the wireless adapter never fails, one mouse and one keyboard always fail. I have tried swapping ports and swapping devices to no avail.

My solution, though crummy, is that I remote into my computer with the DE software on it with my laptop and control it like that.

I have expressed to plasmacam that there are multiple individuals experiencing these problems, and that even if they want to stand by their response that it isn't their software, that they should still find a solution to appease us and make happy customers.

But we (customers having problems) are apparently too few to worry about.

End Rant!

[SignTorch Vector Art]

that's weird,

I don't see how anything connected to the parallel port could do that

if you have a usb keyboard/mouse

I assume the mouse works or you wouldn't be able to do anything

what happens if you switch to another program window, does keyboard still not work

what happens if you close DE, does keyboard still not work

I wonder if a nice wireless logitec or Microsoft keyboard with dedicated driver software would make any difference

[weldor2005]

Gary,

Not to jack the thread, but to give my experiences as well since this is a problem...

Most keyboards have the indicating lights on them as to whether caps/scroll/num lock is on. when I initialize my pcam, they go out and I constantly get the message in the ion tray saying that device drivers were lost or blah blah blah. My computer is constantly trying to get the drivers working again and doing whatever it does, and every so often I could get one or two keystrokes in before it is knocked out again.

I just want in on this thread hoping it gets more attention than my previous ones on the issue ever had, I dont think it is a difference between windows 7 or 8.

[SignTorch Vector Art]

that's interesting, you're not jacking the thread, I just joined in because I'm a bit of a geek about hardware

I barely remember but back in the day I used to write cnc communication software,

if I was having that problem, I'd be trying mach3 to see if it runs into any similar problems (not connected to a plasmacam machine of course)

if mach3 has similar problems that would implicate the computer hardware configuration

if not, I'd think the computer hardware configuration must be ok...

[Shane Warnick]

Signtorch,

If the machine is initialized it does not matter what you switch to the keyboard is awol or waay sketchy at best. As soon as you turn the machine off and the DE software realizes its gone then poof it all works fine again. I have a very good friend that has a doctorate in computational theory and is a computational scientist, he has been helping me with this and the PS/2 emulation is what he traced it back to (he digs into this stuff for fun hell if I know). The parallel ports are now PCIexpress not legacy PCI like the older machines are. Basically the motherboards are all allowed a small difference on how they get info from point a to point b, however it all goes through the front side bus and is then routed to the appropriate nodes on the chips. The variance seems to be in how the front side bus is configured / how efficient it is, and also how fast the chipset is on the given machine. That is where he feels the variance comes from in manifestation of the problem, some people lost the keyboard, some the mouse, some both, some have table communication problems etc. It's the operating system that determines what nodes on the chipset perform what functions. When all the input devices went USB the software solution was to run PS/2 emulation mode. Basically running a program in a shell to run the mouse and keyboard. Thats why 32 bit vs 64 bit don't matter with regards to input devices, they all run the same emulator in a sandbox so to speak. Now when plasmacam lost legacy pci slots and everyone went to PCIexpress, the only way to run a TRUE pci card with two way communication is to force it to run in PS/2 emulation mode. Not normally a big deal, but a few revisions of windows ago (windows 7 I know for sure) they moved some of the routings for the nodes around within the operating system, and also combined some of them. Used to be if it was coming from here it went to here regardless of what it was. This pci slot, that pci slot, etc went to this node. This usb stuff went over there. Now for some reason the USB stuff, as well as the PS/2 emulation are all going to the same node or group of nodes on the same chip. This is where machine performance and the motherboard and subsquent drivers come into play. Since there is no longer legacy PCI then it's not even part of the BIOS anymore, so unless you get a machine that specifically has a legacy PCI slot, there aren't even drivers for it in the BIOS, which is why PS/2 emulation mode is required. Now the operating system is handling a task that used to be done by the BIOS and the front side bus completely in the background from the operating system.

My problem is that Plasmacam has to know this information. Someone up there does. They won't admit it, but are clearly aware of the problem. I posted the same original post on the owners website and the ONLY response I got was a response from Tech Support, that simply said "Google windows keyboard issues" or some such, it's obviously a windows problem. I almost had a friggin stroke. Thanks captain obvious. He failed to mentioned what you get when you google plasmacam software issues.

Basically my beef is that they are well aware of the issue. However, at no point did anyone mention ANY of these issues when I was in the quoting / purchasing portion of my deal. We can furnish you a computer I was told. I asked what kind. Well, we have some guys that build them for us out of new old stock parts and they load them with windows xp or maybe vista and they work great. Ok so I can get a basically obsolete machine with software that is either about to be dropped from or already has been dropped from support by the mfg. What are the requirements for a new machine. Oh just get windows and some decent memory and call these guys and get this PCIexpress card and it will all work fine, no problems at all we assure you. So I bought a dual core pentium i5 with 16gb ram and a 1tb hard drive. For several hundred less than the $1000 plasmacam wanted. Seemed like a good deal to me. At the time. Knowing what I now know, I would have just bought the plasmacam computer HAD THEY BEEN UPFRONT about the POTENTIAL for these issues. If they had told me look bud, you are buying in excess of $20,000 of plasma cutting shazaam and software here, but if you get a computer that is not EXACTLY what is required then you could be fine, or you could open up Pandora's box of issues and frustration, I would have known going in that their computer is required and it's just part of the deal. Kind of like consumables on your plasma torch. How much for a torch? This much. Forever? Sure, you don't have to ever spend another dime on it other than electricity. If you then bought one, and then realized that you have to have an air filter, as well as consumables and oh btw since you didn't get the consumable package deal it costs you 3 times as long to cut anything with it too bad you didn't get that special from us when you bought the machine, you would be a little frustrated. Well, I can't speak for everyone but I would be. Obviously, I am. On the other hand, if you KNOWINGLY take a chance (buy some chinese knockoff plasma consumables for example) hoping to save some money in the long run, but get bit and end up scrapping a $150 sheet of steel or 5 blowing electrodes up or damage your torch and have to spend $1000 on a new one plus the right consumables, you will still feel frustrated, but you were informed, and made a decision, and will learn from the experience and move on. Bottom line is, you WERE TOLD UPFRONT that those knockoff consumables may be bad news. Some people love them. Others have suffered and paid as a result. Use at your own risk, you have been warned, best of luck to you.

End of the day, I guess it's just not really a fair business practice in my mind. Don't get me wrong, my table is awesome and I make great money with it. Would I buy another one? Let me run it for a couple of years and I will let you know. Right now, probably, but you bet your donkey I would say you best send me your computer and it better work PERFECTLY or we are going to have issues jack. I recommended one to a buddy in Houston, but with the same advice.

There is only two fixes for these issues best I can tell. FIrst off, obviously the ps/2 emulation deal is not unique to just plasmacam and design edge. It IS INDEED a windows issue, as other peripherals or programs are running into similar conflicts, and other people are having probems with their input devices. I am HOPING that microsoft will research and issue a patch to the operating system to move some stuff around to other nodes, and that one day after an update to windows the issue will just resolve itself. I can dream right?

The second is that Plasmacam is HOPEFULLY looking to bring their controller technology up to date and move away from a legacy system. USB will not work as it will not talk both ways simultaneously, which is obviously required for the table to keep up with where the motors are and what the torch is doing. I know for a fact that there are other options out there that are inexpensive, that are more than adequate and am hoping Plasmacam is moving in that direction, and will offer this new upgrade some time in the near future. Again, a guy can dream right?

As far as a workaround, all I am doing right now is not initializing the machine until all the settings are correct and I am ready to cut. Then once that is done if I have to change designs or the drawing etc I try, sometimes I can get it done babying the keyboard along. Sometimes not, then I turn the table off, make the changes, and reinitialize. Is it like a death by 1000 cuts? No, but it does make me gnash my teeth a little and hope I'm not going to prematurely wear the z axis out running it up hard all the time initializing it.

Sorry for the long read, just started typing and ended up with a book. I'm off to bed to dream about far flung fantasies like Microsoft actually getting someting right the 3rd time and controller updates

You guys be safe and keep all your stuff shiny side up.
Shane

[BrianMick]

Man......you lost me at "Signtorch"
I definitely can not help you
Brian

[jimcolt]

I had a similar problem with an older computer with XP, as well as a brand new one with windows 7. While I didn;t play around or worry about serial ports (both connected easily with the machine, and brand new PC's that come equipped with serial ports work just fine for me). Instead I looked at the problem as an issue with keyboard compatibility. I had 3 or 4 old keyboards (all USB) kicking around....I found two that work 100%, and the other two provide similar symptoms as listed here. These questiosn would be better suited (of course) going directly to tech service at PlasmaCam.

Jim Colt

[weldor2005]

Jim,

He and I at different times have posted these concerns on plasmacam's owner community forum and got comments (not answers) that felt as if they weren't going to spend time resolving an issue that they feel isn't theirs, and good luck! I don't want to bash Pcam, they should know about this problem by now and offer support.

I see times that you give support to users here when it is not a Hypertherm. Yes, you do point them towards the manufacturer, but you don't turn them away either.

I have no problem trying several keyboards for this effort, but if that is the case, why are we the end user doing the RND for them?

[SignTorch Vector Art]

interesting, I sort of understand,

I sure hope a different keyboard will do the trick,

what doesn't kill you makes you stronger...

hang in there...

[geosue79]

We had a fire in the building that we were in, since then we have moved and are kind of starting over, we bought a new computer windows 8 and design edge software and thought we would have it all and be good to go. Not so fast, we didnt research just thought we were doing good spending this kind of money and would have a great machine. Well its been a night mare and we arent even ready to use the new design edge software yet. First we had to get the parallel port to add to the new computer, Then we couldnt get the machine to initialize so had to call plasma and get help with settings to make it all compatible. Now we think we are almost ready to start cutting again and nope now the controller doesnt work, the torch wont fire from the controller, between the fire and having to move and start over and now the machines not wanting to work, Im ready to throw in the towel. I guess we now have to send the controller in to get checked out, MORE MONeY. DOes anyone know what a new controller costs for plasma cam? And now reading all the trouble about the keyboard and mouse really upsets me. Wish I would have done some homework before we decided to move forward. ANy advice would be greatly appreciated

[jimcolt]

The best bet for your troubles is to go directly to Plasmacam tech service and have them help you troubleshoot. It is very easy to troubleshoot the torch firing circuit as it is simply a relay contact closure from the control box. What happens when the plasma is powered up and has proper air pressure (by the way, what plasma?) and you press the "Test" button on the control box? The torch should fire immediately when this is done. If it does not.....then you will need to go back and check the wiring through the Plasmacam cable (I could help if I knew the plasma make and model, whether it uses a hand torch or machine torch). Best bet is to go right to the plasma start connections....jumper them.....does the torch fire now? If no, then the issue may be with your wiring to the start signal. If a hand torch it may be that the tie-wrap on the trigger switch is not activating the switch (necessary on hand torch applications.

The Plasmacam is a well engineered system, is easy to trouble shoot, and the 3 I have owned have been extremely reliable over the last 15 or so years.

Jim Colt

We had a fire in the building that we were in, since then we have moved and are kind of starting over, we bought a new computer windows 8 and design edge software and thought we would have it all and be good to go. Not so fast, we didnt research just thought we were doing good spending this kind of money and would have a great machine. Well its been a night mare and we arent even ready to use the new design edge software yet. First we had to get the parallel port to add to the new computer, Then we couldnt get the machine to initialize so had to call plasma and get help with settings to make it all compatible. Now we think we are almost ready to start cutting again and nope now the controller doesnt work, the torch wont fire from the controller, between the fire and having to move and start over and now the machines not wanting to work, Im ready to throw in the towel. I guess we now have to send the controller in to get checked out, MORE MONeY. DOes anyone know what a new controller costs for plasma cam? And now reading all the trouble about the keyboard and mouse really upsets me. Wish I would have done some homework before we decided to move forward. ANy advice would be greatly appreciated

[1MORECUT]

I'm running win 8.1 and all is well . The cost of a new controller is $2000.00.

John

[yeomansjon]

Question for all somewhat along the same lines I guess. I just had my hard drive crash and am looking to replace. Is it better to go with an older machine or new machine? I could simply replace the hard drive but I don't have a single recovery or backup disc for windows. It looks cheaper to buy a new Dell than replace parts piece-mail. I have the older DHC Pcam software (not the new design edge unfortunately). Assuming the new computer comes with a true parallel port, is there any problem with Windows 7 or 8 64-bit with the DHC and old Pcam software?

[PlasmaMac]

You can get the parallel ports all day, everyday from Axxon (http://www.softio.com/). They make the dual voltage (3.3/5.5 or 3/5) high voltage ports ports which work great and can be install in the in the back of any new desktop PC. PlasmaCAM conveniently sells new PCs that are ready to go and work great with the machine..if you don't want to deal with the port install.

Window 8, not the biggest fan for many other reasons...but to each their own!

J.A.G.