deciding on new table

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Cbrbarnes
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deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

I'm going to be in the market for a new table soon. I've got an idea of what I want but getting up close and personal with these tables before you buy is an issue. I can only tell so much from the websites and of course every manufacturer makes their machine look like the best thing since pants with pockets. I've come down to 4 tables that I'm considering and I realize that this is like asking a group of truck guys what the best truck on the market is but I figured I would give it a shot. I trust the vast amount of knowledge on this forum and would like to keep this a friendly discussion. I'm a small home shop that will be running a hypertherm powermax 85 cutter. I've got experience with Mach3 but am willing to learn different software. My choices have come down to the Torch Mate 2, Nitro table, Arclight Dynamics, and a PlasmaCam setup. It will be a 4x8 table. The cost of the Arclight is very attractive and I like the tube/pipe cutting set up but I've been fooled by price before. I don't want to buy another table in a year because I'm not happy with the money I've already spent. Any input is very much welcomed. Thanks
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CNCCAJUN
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by CNCCAJUN »

What type of work do you typically do on your table?

Industrial, pieces parts or art type of stufff?

Steve
Smiling Gator Metal Works, LLC
Dynatorch 4X4 XLS
PowerMAX 85
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Cbrbarnes
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

Typically doing artistic type pieces but the occasional bracket for my "real" job is becoming more and more common. I'm a stickler for precision, I guess we all are or we would be cutting this stuff by hand. My goal is to be able to cut nice square, true pieces with as little clean up as possible. Compared to most on this site I'm very new to this field but I've been working with my table long enough to know it's limitations.
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CNCCAJUN
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by CNCCAJUN »

Look at DYNATORCH . . . The XLS table 4 X 8.

Call Ric Hanby for info & quote.

Steve
Smiling Gator Metal Works, LLC
Dynatorch 4X4 XLS
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rikduk
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by rikduk »

I love my Bulltear, its been flawless so far (runs with sheetcam and mach3)
Do you have experience with CAD drawing?
My experience is search, get as much info as you can.(this thread is a good beginning)
I'm sure others will chip in with their table.

Richard
Cbrbarnes
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

I've never heard of a Bulltear, I will look into it, thanks.
Metriccar
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Metriccar »

There is a person on this site named _Ogre who has a BullTear table, and he has been showing pictures of his cuts. They are coming out real nice.

I think all of the tables you mentioned have their pros and cons, but I'm willing to bet for the most part, if you were to cut a piece off each of them, and mix them up, you couldn't tell what part came off what brand of table. One thing though is I've heard from several people that a Plasmacam cuts better than a Torchmate. I began requesting sample pieces from various manufacturers and this helped determine what I could expect. I asked a sample from Dynatorch, it was no better than a Plasmacam. However Plasmacam bearings ride on powder coated sheetmetal, and as the table is used, the powdercoating flakes off where the bearings ride, thus creating your "channel." I don't see how this could possibly compare to a V-rail bearing guide and is my only gripe about Plasmacam. The one thing these lower end plasma tables seem to have issues with is stability at higher speeds. Since you are cutting artwork, I take it you will be cutting thinner metal, meaning higher cut speeds, meaning more instability. If it's just artwork, like trees, or what have you, it doesn't matter, the instability can come up as "style" and you'll be fine. But if you cut letters, or things of that nature, stability comes really important.

BTA is a member of this website and he was saying there was some improvement he made, that supposedly added to stability up to 400 IPM. For that reason I'd say it's definitely worth a look. I saw a video a few years ago of a Dynatorch on Youtube and the owner of a new Superbee pressed on the carriage and I could see it move/flex. This will show up in cuts when you're moving around at 250 IPM making sharp corner cuts. Again, supposedly they changed the design of the bracing since then that would help with this. That is my #1 gripe on plasma cutting tables. You will see it around sharp edges... a wavy sawtooth line where a straight line should be, around corners. I slow the machine down and it goes away, but the result is dross, which is a lot easier to fix.

If you're happy with Mach3 then that will save you some money. I am a big fan of the DesignEdge software that comes with Plasmacam. I couldn't think of anything that would need to be improved or a feature that should be added, when it comes to the software aspect of it. But it does cost more.

I will send you a PM that I think may help. We're talking a lot of money here buying a new table.
Cbrbarnes
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

This has all been very helpful. One of the factors I've been looking into is the tube/pipe option. Any idea why the Arclight option is $800 and most other manufacturers are closer to $2000? The Bulltear table as of right now looks very attractive for what I'm looking for. I will contact them and try to get some more info.
ZTFab
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by ZTFab »

Cbrbarnes, where are you located?

I have an Arclight ArcPro 9600 that you are more than welcome to come look at if you are near Southern California.

You can see some sample parts that I cut in my post in the Arclight forum.
762frmafr
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by 762frmafr »

LDR Motion Systems and don't look back.
Cbrbarnes
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

ZTFab- thanks for the offer. As much as I would like to come out and visit you and some of my family in Cali, I won't be able to get out there. I'm in Michigan and with 2 small children, traveling unfortunately isn't in the cards in the near future. I really appreciate the offer though.
Cbrbarnes
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

the LDR is intriguing from a price standpoint. I will definitely be doing more research into this table. Does anybody have any input on watertable vs downdraft. My current set up has a watertable which has its pros and cons but I don't have any experience with the downdraft tables. I do have a way to exhaust the fumes if this is a more efficient way to get rid of the cloud(which my wife is constantly on my case about)
dhelfter
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by dhelfter »

The reason there is such a large variance in price for a rotary system, is 1. how it moves the pipe/tube and 2. what size it can handle. Many systems use a "rubber band" style drive. Others use gearboxes that are not conducive to bi directional cutting. Many systems handle light tube or pipe fine, but are not designed to handle heavy stock. Our system uses an actual 3 jaw chuck mounted to a precision gearbox. We also use a design that allows for up to 12" diameter, and full length cutting. The pipe is placed in the "tray" via hand, forklift, or overhead crane, then the headstock raises and lowers to match center line of pipe. No need to try and hold a 400lb pipe while getting it chucked up! We build many large industrial scale pipe machines that handle up to 36"diam 24' long and I can tell you designing and building a system to handle pipe is much different than flat tables. If you are only doing light small material, any one of the systems will work, but as you get in to large diameter and thicker wall, a system designed to handle that will make the extra 1200$ well worth it.
Dan
http://www.ldrmotionsystems.com
dhelfter
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by dhelfter »

Cbrbarnes,

If I can ask what do you not care for about your current water table?
Thanks
Dan
LDR Motion Systems
Cbrbarnes
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

Hi Dan. First of all, thanks for the explanation on the rotary systems. The table I am currently running was a gantry kit that I built a water table underneath of. Being in Michigan and that I am just starting to get my shop going, I don't heat my shop all winter. The table I have now has been great for learning and getting the basics down but I have quickly outgrown its capacity and limitations. Your tables are very attractive from a price standpoint, I would love to get a peek at one of them. Do you have any on display in the Detroit area?
762frmafr
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by 762frmafr »

Cbrbarnes wrote:Hi Dan. First of all, thanks for the explanation on the rotary systems. The table I am currently running was a gantry kit that I built a water table underneath of. Being in Michigan and that I am just starting to get my shop going, I don't heat my shop all winter. The table I have now has been great for learning and getting the basics down but I have quickly outgrown its capacity and limitations. Your tables are very attractive from a price standpoint, I would love to get a peek at one of them. Do you have any on display in the Detroit area?
Take a ride on down to Missouri. I will let you play with mine all you want.
Cbrbarnes
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

I've been looking a lot into the LDR table and I like what I've been seeing. For now it looks like it comes down to the LDR, Arclight and Bulltear tables. Dan at LDR has been a great help, we've been back and for several times over email. I can't wait to get going with a new toy...tool, If my wife asks, tool.
icmplasma85
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by icmplasma85 »

I only have experience with plasmacam, but one thing Ive learned is there is more than one way to skin a cat. I think with plasmacam its not so much the table, but the software. I love designedge. It is extremely easy to use. If I were to buy another table right now that was not plasmacam, it would most likely be a Tracker Pro table. They seem to have alot of nice features, including a built in downdraft.

Whatever table you go with, my recommendation would be no water table, downdraft all the way. Water tables do not get rid of smoke the way that downdraft does, its a better setup all around.

There are alot of good tables out there, biggest thing is research research research. I bet I read up on plasma cutting and different tables for 6 months before I made a final decision. You just need to figure out what will suit your needs the best, and no one can figure that out but you. Just remember there are plenty of people on here that are always willing to give great advice.
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dhelfter
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by dhelfter »

I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement on water tables. Both water and down draft have their advantages and disadvantages. In the long run ddraft is more expensive. Most people who are not happy with water, only use a tray and the water can not be easily adjusted, our systems use air pressure to set the water to any height you want. Also down draft needs to have lots of the deck covered to work, so cutting on scrap pieces can be less than ideal. I believe both have there place and is hard to say one is always better than another. Same thing with all the cnc plasma tables out there. Almost all of them do a great job, just some have different features than others, and the customer needs to decide what features they need/want.
Thanks
Dan
www.ldrmotionsystems.com
BTA Plasma
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by BTA Plasma »

Water tables

Pros: Less warpage, less plate growth, reduced smoke 90 some percent, removal of parts immediately after they are cut (thickness dependant)
Cons: Can produce slightly more dross, splash can jump over the table, refilling can be necessary, some steam will be present

Down draft
Pros: Standard dross, suction prevents smoke buildup, great for 24 and thinner ga production cutting at low amps
Cons: Suction of atmospheric heat and cool air from your shop, pieces are often too hot to touch, If the fan fails your stuck breathing toxic plasma smoke, can also allow heat buildup to warp thin aluminum and steel.

You can almost go both ways with those comments except the fact that downdraft will always suck the shop air out. In some cases that would be a good thing to have negative air pressure in certain shops. Those with water trays or a super high percentage of them would say they would never go to a downdraft. Those with downdraft also think its the best thing since sliced bread. Personally in our climate we let our air exchangers handle the shop air and always use a water tray. The only down draft I would ever recommend would be one for HVAC production.
rikduk
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by rikduk »

I really like my water table (pan), you can pick the pieces right after they"re cut, no gloves.
I live in Qu?bec (cold in winter), and have a 5X10, so downdraft would have to be zoned (expensive)

One con on water, is that when you cut stainless or aluminium, you have to wipe them after cutting, otherwise the dirty water stains them, but can get removed with a compound buffing. (Or am i the only one?)
Cbrbarnes
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by Cbrbarnes »

I built a water tray under my current table and I noticed the same thing with the staining. The water seems to get pretty funky and corrosive. Are there any solutions to put into the water so it doesn't freeze or is automotive antifreeze acceptable? Just not sure if it would for any reason negatively affect a cut or component.
zachv
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by zachv »

It can definitely be a daunting decision. I know--I just made the same decision after going back and forth for over a year. I was settled on an LDR table and Dan is great to work with and I do not think you could go wrong with his products.

However, I decided to go with a Bulltear/StarLab 4x4 turnkey machine. It was just delivered Wednesday and I do not have it running yet, but just seeing the quality of the machine was enough to make me proud of my purchase. The rigidity of this whole unit is what won me over, along with the service that Matt provided and offers. The way the gantry rides on side rails just seems so much better than the LDR and Torchmate tables that I have seen. My buddy's TM needs to be cleaned a lot from the slag on the exposed rails and gears. If you get the chance to see a Bulltear/StarLab table in person the decision will be clear. They provide the best "value"--maybe not the cheapest, but worth every penny. I really like the LDR bladder system for the water tank, and think it is genius, but unless you are changing material thickness often it may not be enough to sway your decision.
762frmafr
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by 762frmafr »

zachv wrote:It can definitely be a daunting decision. I know--I just made the same decision after going back and forth for over a year. I was settled on an LDR table and Dan is great to work with and I do not think you could go wrong with his products.

However, I decided to go with a Bulltear/StarLab 4x4 turnkey machine. It was just delivered Wednesday and I do not have it running yet, but just seeing the quality of the machine was enough to make me proud of my purchase. The rigidity of this whole unit is what won me over, along with the service that Matt provided and offers. The way the gantry rides on side rails just seems so much better than the LDR and Torchmate tables that I have seen. My buddy's TM needs to be cleaned a lot from the slag on the exposed rails and gears. If you get the chance to see a Bulltear/StarLab table in person the decision will be clear. They provide the best "value"--maybe not the cheapest, but worth every penny. I really like the LDR bladder system for the water tank, and think it is genius, but unless you are changing material thickness often it may not be enough to sway your decision.

I am glad you are happy with your decision, and hope you get years of wonderful service out of your machine. But just an FYI to anyone reading this, I have been cutting on my LDR table for almost a year, and have never had a problem with the rails, I have also never so much as wiped them down with a rag.
dhelfter
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Re: deciding on new table

Post by dhelfter »

Bulltear is a great machine and am sure you will be very happy. I do want to mention that our rails are Vee groove style, not just flat stock with cam followers. V groove bearings were designed to be used in harsh environments. Here is a link to a video from Bishop wisecarver showing them being dowsed in saw dust!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3VzmEhNgZM
The first machines we built we used recirculating ball linear slides, and wow it was great. Real smooth, the problem is if anything happens to the seal, plasma grit will DESTROY them (ask how I know!) I do know bulltear uses bearing system very similar to v rollers just with round rod:
http://www.lm76.com/CNC%20Plama%20News%20Note.html
Again, they make a wonderful machine and you will be very happy

Thanks
Dan
LDR Motion systems
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