Jim, you won't like this question

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beefy
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Jim, you won't like this question

Post by beefy »

Hi Jim,

being a Hypertherm employee, I know this is not the type of question you like to answer, but seeing as there are no tiny consumable for the Duramax torch, I'm turning into a desperate man :D

I basically need to rebuild my table to prevent shake at higher cutting speed. Don't have the time or cash yet to do that.

The Powermax 30 XP torch has smaller finecut consumable that can work at a smaller amperage (= slower feedrate). My PM1250 can go down to 25 amps. According to the 30 XP cut charts that drops the feedrate down by about 1000 mm/min on 3mm steel.

Can you see any reason why I can't retrofit a 30 XP torch to my PM1250. As far as the wiring goes I'm an industrial sparky by trade, have designed electronic circuits, made circuit boards, etc so I'm OK in that department. I'm mainly wondering is there anything which will prevent me from doing this modification.

It will be cheaper and easier to swap over torches on my 1250 than to swap over different plasma cutters. I know I'll also have to plumb in an airline connection.

I understand I will completely void any warranty on the torch LOL, and my 1250 is long out of warranty.

Cheers,

Keith.
2500 x 1500 water table
Powermax 1250 & Duramax torch (because of the new $$$$ync system, will buy Thermal Dynamics next)
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beefy
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by beefy »

Also been toying with the concept of an adjustable load bank to "dump" the other 10 amps (or less) leaving me with 15-25 amps through the torch. It's looking feasible to me so far.

Keith.
2500 x 1500 water table
Powermax 1250 & Duramax torch (because of the new $$$$ync system, will buy Thermal Dynamics next)
LinuxCNC
Sheetcam
Alibre Design 3D solid modelling
Coreldraw 2019
jimcolt
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by jimcolt »

Every consumable part design requires different pilot arc current ramps, different timing of the air flow ramp up in order to enhance the consumable life. I have no doubt that you could put the 30XP on your system and make it fire and cut, but I strongly suspect the consumable life will be less than acceptable. Nothing wrong with trying.

Our torch and consumable process group is constantly reviewing what the field wants....and they are aware that there is a fair amount of demand for better cut quality, slower cut speeds, thinner materials. While I wouldn't expect anything immediately.....there will be better capability at the low end as time goes on.

I agree that the 30XP with its low powered Finecut consumables does a great job on thin gauge materials at lower cut speeds. I mounted a 30XP on my CNC in my home shop..and it does a great job, square edges, nice hole and fine feature quality.

Jim Colt Hypertherm
beefy
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by beefy »

Thanks very much Jim.

I thought there'd by some things I didn't think off.

Keith
2500 x 1500 water table
Powermax 1250 & Duramax torch (because of the new $$$$ync system, will buy Thermal Dynamics next)
LinuxCNC
Sheetcam
Alibre Design 3D solid modelling
Coreldraw 2019
Metriccar
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by Metriccar »

beefy, can you lower your acceleration rate?

I bought a table and was disappointed at it's stability at higher speed. Bought a Plasmacam, thinking it would solve all my problems. It too had "sawtooth" cuts at higher speed. I reduced the acceleration rate to .05 for all metal thicknesses, and that helped a lot (I believe default setting was .30). It helped with the sawtooth at higher speed/thinner metal, and helped with corner transitions for thicker metal for a squarer cut/no bevel.
beefy
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by beefy »

Metriccar wrote:beefy, can you lower your acceleration rate?

I bought a table and was disappointed at it's stability at higher speed. Bought a Plasmacam, thinking it would solve all my problems. It too had "sawtooth" cuts at higher speed. I reduced the acceleration rate to .05 for all metal thicknesses, and that helped a lot (I believe default setting was .30). It helped with the sawtooth at higher speed/thinner metal, and helped with corner transitions for thicker metal for a squarer cut/no bevel.
Metriccar,

you know what ? I have always been told to have max. acceleration for plasma cutting, yet I've also noticed how the fast transition at corners leaves quite a lean in the cut edge. I've always had issues on the thicker stuff too, even had a tab left on corners where it seems the "flame" has went round the corner and re-pierced :shock: . The lean coming out of a corner has always been quite pronounced on the thick stuff.

I've always wondered - how can a "floppy flame" with trailing cut lines go well together with fast direction changes. I like what you are saying.

Your suggestion and your experience of the improvements have filled me with some hope.

Thank you very much.

Keith
2500 x 1500 water table
Powermax 1250 & Duramax torch (because of the new $$$$ync system, will buy Thermal Dynamics next)
LinuxCNC
Sheetcam
Alibre Design 3D solid modelling
Coreldraw 2019
jimcolt
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by jimcolt »

Maximum acceleration is always best for plasma, assuming the mechanics of the machine can still provide fluidic motion at that max acceleration rate. When I say tune your machines drives to "max", I mean for your machine. I have worked with $80,000 4 x 4 ballscrew machines that were tight, had intertia match AC brushless drives, and literally had to be bolted to the floor because it could accelerate from 0 to 1000 ipm in about 1/4". These types of machines will not produce rippled edges when tuned to their max.....which should be expected to be higher than the max on a Plasmacam. I have two Plasmacam's and a Torchmate in my home shop. You need to keep their acceleration rates at a level that works with their mechanics, you get what you pay for!

Jim Colt
Metriccar
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by Metriccar »

For comparison purposes, these 1" high letters were cut at manual settings using fine cut consumables, 14 gauge. 220 IPM. The only difference is the one on the left, .05 for acceleration was used, while on the right, acceleration was at .40.

You can see the heat discoloration (and this translates to dross on the backside, as well as warping on bigger higher detail cuts), but the machine held control a lot better.

Until a machine can cut in this detail, with high speed and acceleratoin, 1) I don't see the benefit of "servo" motors if we have to run acceleration so low anyways and 2) very low amp plasma cutters would be ideal for thinner metals, which was one of the reasons I was interested in the Powermax30 XP. I have a funny feeling a lower amp plasma cutter will be a lot cheaper than any gantry/table that can maintain control at these high a speed. Those big machines like AKS Accu-Kuts have gantries that weigh probably as much if not more as my entire Plasmacam weighs. There would have to be a lot of engineering and tight tolerances (ie expensive) to be able to compete with me just lowering the acceleration on my entry level machine.

And until one of these Mach3 table manufacturers can show they can cut as stable an "E" on the left at a higher acceleration rate, I see no point in switching to a Mach 3.
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beefy
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by beefy »

Metriccar wrote:very low amp plasma cutters would be ideal for thinner metals, which was one of the reasons I was interested in the Powermax30 XP. I have a funny feeling a lower amp plasma cutter will be a lot cheaper than any gantry/table that can maintain control at these high a speed.
Metriccar,

I always recommend Hypertherm but in this special case, because it's all about lowering the speed, I'd say compare cut speeds of different machines (if you can get hold of them). As long as a machine has pilot start and it doesn't cause interference with the electronics, a cheapy may serve better, just a thought. Here in Australia I seen a pilot arc machine for $500 whereas the 30 XP is heading towards $2000

Being a recent model Hypertherm I bet the 30 XP cuts faster than lesser quality machines. I think for instance my Duramax torch cuts faster than the original torch that came with my PM1250.

Quite an irony really. With a poorly engineered table a more expensive and higher quality (faster) plasma cutter can degrade cut quality because of machine shake.

Keith
2500 x 1500 water table
Powermax 1250 & Duramax torch (because of the new $$$$ync system, will buy Thermal Dynamics next)
LinuxCNC
Sheetcam
Alibre Design 3D solid modelling
Coreldraw 2019
jimcolt
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by jimcolt »

There still are benefits to servo motors on machines with less than perfect mechanics. Speed. If you somedays need to cut at 5ipm on 1" material, than an hour later cut at 380 ipm on large parts without too much intricate detail....the servo has torque at both the low speed and the high speed, the stepper only has torque in a narrow band...can be high speed or low speed, but not both. Most stepper machines are limited at the top speed....the most popular ones stop at 150 ipm. Servo machines typically can go to 400 ipm.

Next, since servos have an encoder feedback loop....it is unlikely you will lose position even with collisions. Further, the software can take advantage of knowing where the torch is. Push the gantry out of the way to inspect a part, then hit the start button and it will move back and restart cutting right where it stopped. The stepper will start where you pushed it to. And, often you can highlight a part, hit copy, drag and drop it where you want on the plate. Much more difficult to do this with a stepper machine.....re-zero, do some x-y coordinate math....and if you didn'd makje a mistake the new part will be in the right place!

I am not knocking steppers. They have a perfect fit in the world of light industrial and entry level machines where the complexity and cost of servos is sometimes prohibitive.

Don't expect any machine that mechanical guideways that are less accurate than a recirculating bearing mounted on a stress relived milled surface...to be as accurate. On $100k industrial machines you will only find recirculating ways, stress relieved milled ways, servodrives, etc. That is why they cost so much.

You can develop specs for a Hypertherm plasma for low speed cutting....you will have some dross (easily removed) but perfectly smooth edges even on thin materials. I do it on my Plasmacam all the time.

Jim Colt


Metriccar wrote:For comparison purposes, these 1" high letters were cut at manual settings using fine cut consumables, 14 gauge. 220 IPM. The only difference is the one on the left, .05 for acceleration was used, while on the right, acceleration was at .40.

You can see the heat discoloration (and this translates to dross on the backside, as well as warping on bigger higher detail cuts), but the machine held control a lot better.

Until a machine can cut in this detail, with high speed and acceleratoin, 1) I don't see the benefit of "servo" motors if we have to run acceleration so low anyways and 2) very low amp plasma cutters would be ideal for thinner metals, which was one of the reasons I was interested in the Powermax30 XP. I have a funny feeling a lower amp plasma cutter will be a lot cheaper than any gantry/table that can maintain control at these high a speed. Those big machines like AKS Accu-Kuts have gantries that weigh probably as much if not more as my entire Plasmacam weighs. There would have to be a lot of engineering and tight tolerances (ie expensive) to be able to compete with me just lowering the acceleration on my entry level machine.

And until one of these Mach3 table manufacturers can show they can cut as stable an "E" on the left at a higher acceleration rate, I see no point in switching to a Mach 3.
photo.JPG
vmax549
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by vmax549 »

On the cut on the right your servos are out of tune. You can see the overshooting and oscilations in motion.

Acelleration rules in plasma/laser cutting.. NOW IF you did NOT engineer the drives to the application then you are limited to the drives ability to move. Slow accelleration will show up as corner rounding as the controller HAS to compensate for the accelleration rates at speed.

I have no problem matching the left cut with Mach3 and even do smaller letters .500 tall. To cut them you HAVE to haul the mail and without Fast accel there will not be any leter left it will be melted away.

Just a thought, (;-) TP
dhelfter
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by dhelfter »

I try to explain to all of our potential customers that there is a difference between acceleration and "controlled acceleration"
Control electronics and motors have come a long way, however it does not matter (in the purest sense) what motor you bolt on to an object, it is physics, it will take x amount of power to accelerate x object at x rate! Servo, stepper, hydraulic, or gerbil! Just because a motor can accelerate at a given rate does not mean the mechanics can handle it without vibration. There are two ways to increase acceleration, increase power or decrease weight. So one decreases weight, but then has less structure and mass to dampen/absorb any vibration. Increase the strength and vibration dampening ability, and you increase weight. It is a catch 22. This is the main reason you see the "big boys" use servos. I have to disagree with steppers being slower. If the stepper is to slow, then it is either geared wrong or is not large enough. Type of motor has nothing to do with power needed.

Dan
LDR Motion Systems
jimcolt
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by jimcolt »

I agree Dan, however many of the low cost machines use undersized steppers and perhaps no gear or belt reduction, therefore at a certain speed (within the advertised speed range of the motor) the stepper simply runs out of torque. Servos have the advantage of having a wider torque/rpm curve.

Absolutely nothing wrong with steppers, accuracy is just as good and speed range is fine as long as they are properly matched to the system mass and geared correctly. Some machine manufacturers simply use undersized steppers to save on cost....with the side affect being poor cut quality at higher speed ranges.

Jim Colt Hypertherm
dhelfter
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by dhelfter »

Jim,
I could not agree more! A properly sized/designed servo system will out perform the best of any stepper system. Whether that is noticeable in the cut depends on so many variables. My reason for responding was I believe so many people want to say servos are better or steppers are better, yet they leave all other aspects of the machine out of the equation. A gantry that moves like a wet noodle, will be useless regardless of motor used. The "big boys" have done thousands of hours of engineering and I feel a lot of customers think they can just bolt a servo on any machine and boom it will work as well as (insert big name here)! On the flip side, a lot of servo systems get a bad wrap because the servo system was not tuned properly, that can be an art in itself, one that I have struggled with.

Thanks
Dan
LDR
jimcolt
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by jimcolt »

When you spend $100k for a well designed high end industrial machine today you get drives and motors that are inertia matched to the mass and the drag forces, you get a machine that has been tuned using the proportional, inertial and derivative methods for its particular use, configuration, mass and drag as well. The expensive industrial machines are expected to operate 3 shifts a day on a busy industrial floor (think John Deere, Caterpillar plants) for 20 years with consistent cut quality day to day.

On the lower cost side there are definitely more machines being built, but one of the biggest factors is the cost....they must be cheaper than a Bass boat or the wife won't let you spend the money (in many cases)! The machines are lighter in weight and use standard off the shelf PC's or Laptops as the CNC control, and often use steppers because they are less complex and lower priced. These machines still need to be designed with smooth, fluidic motion, excellent acceleration and excellent control of torch height for piercing as well as for steady state cutting. Just be wary that your supplier has the experience and design expertise to make it work, and make it last under your conditions!

Jim Colt Hypertherm
dhelfter
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Re: Jim, you won't like this question

Post by dhelfter »

Yes I would think for 100K the servos would be tuned! Actually if a machine at any price is supplied with servos they should be inertia matched and tuned, regardless of money spent.
I am just saying take two machines, and one has servos and one steppers, from that information alone no one can say which machine is "better". We get customers all the time that think this is the case.
No doubt we agree servos are typically used on high end machines (and should be for lots of reasons), but the act of using a servo does not make a machine high end.
Dan
LDR
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