Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

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Dingo745
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Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

I was intending to use an Ethernet Smooth Stepper motion controller for my Mach3 CNC table so that I can use a more modern laptop computer which I have two spare.
I was advised to use the ethernet version rather than the USB version of the Smooth Stepper motion controller on a plasma machine because of the better shielding against RFI and that they are a lot quicker than USB.

Having said all that I was advised to check that fact, so do you guys have any experience with Ethernet Smooth Stepper motion controllers and CNC Plasma machines.
I'd like to be 100% sure before I spend the $300 AUD on that Ethernet Smooth Stepper motion controller as I can't afford to make a dumb mistake, which I am quite good at doing :?

Thanks,
Deane
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by sphurley »

Which controller? The CandCNC DTHC is a smooth stepper front end driving a break out board that then drives some Gecko 251's if I recall.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by acourtjester »

Dingo 745 PM sent please read.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Wadzii »

An Ethernet controller won't work with mach3. The delays make it terrible. I ended up switching to UCCNC instead of mach3 so that I could use an Ethernet motion controller.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Wadzii »

Mach3 pretty much only works correctly with a parallel port. There are deal breaking issues with mach3's USB and Ethernet controllers. UCCNC was actually designed this century, mach3 seems like it's a relic left over from 1996
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by beefy »

Wadzii wrote:An Ethernet controller won't work with mach3. The delays make it terrible. I ended up switching to UCCNC instead of mach3 so that I could use an Ethernet motion controller.
Wadzii,

could you be a bit more specific on the what "delays" you are referring to.

External motion controllers whether USB or Ethernet basically queue the gcode instructions in the external microcontroller, and the feedback many user give is often that these systems give better smoother control than a multi-tasking windows PC using the parallel port. And most of those reports I hear are from Mach3 users.

The Smooth Stepper had problems in the beginning with the synchronous laser commands M10/M11 but I'm pretty sure even those got sorted out. Candcnc uses the Smooth Stepper and you never hear anything about delay issues.

I'm also moving over to UCCNC and already have the UC400ETH board and intend to get the UC300ETH when it's in production, but the reasons are nothing to do with other ethernet motion controllers supposedly having delays. As you have mentioned my reasons are also more to do with having a modern system that can take advantage of modern PCs, PLUS UCcnc is being actively developed and improved all the time, unlike Mach3 which has a lot of reported bugs and there's no more development.
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Dingo745
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

Great info guys, but I'm even more confused than I was before.
I was referring to the Warp9 Ethernet Smooth Stepper of which I have been told that it works like a charm to the other end of the scale and it is a piece of crap.
I already own Mach3 and don't really want to shell out for a completely new software package.
What also confuses me is how can Warp9 advertise that a product does something and yet some people say it won't or can't ?
In Oz we call that false advertising and it is illegal under the Trades Practices Act and wouldn't be allowed.
I might have a look at UCCNC and see what it's all about :\
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by sphurley »

I have a CNC router with a Warp9 driving a Gecko G540, I also have a small mill with the same setup. My plasma is a CandCNC DTHC IV which uses a Warp 9 to drive his BOB and then the Geckos. Is there delays in Mach/Windows, Yes which is why CandCNC is also moving to Linux based systems and the fact as stated above Mach support for Mach3 is dead. There are a lot of Plasma machines using Warp9 and Gecko G540s with Mach. The delay are small and really only effect "technical" cuts, I doubt you will tell the difference.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by WyoGreen »

I use a warp9 usb smooth stepper on my CNC Router table with my homebuilt controller running on Mach3. I have never had a minutes worth of trouble with it, once I had it up and running. I have no intention of ever upgrading that setup, it works just fine. My plasma table runs on the CandCNC Linux system, and it works just fine also, using the ethernet smoothstepper.

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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

Thanks WyoGreen & Sphurley for your input, that almost contradicts what other have said and there is a lot of differing opinions.
I'm too set in my ways and knowledge and i have been a Windows man before windows was born and it was DOS which goes back a few years. I have never dabbled in linux as I installed one of free releases and hated how slow it took to boot so I wiped it and kept on with Win.
I have looked at the CandCNC DTHC IV system but it would cost me about $1,400 AUD to get it here to Australia as the freight, exchange rates and import duty makes it pretty expensive.
The ESS is just under $300 AUD and THC $300 upwards and ass usual with me it's all about the money or lack of it, so I will probably take a punt on the ESS and roll the dice.

Thanks,
Deane.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by tcaudle »

The ESS will work okay with a conventional UP/Down (i.e. 'Cheap") THC. It has direct inputs for the THC signals that you can use to "simulate" THC control though MACH3. It won't work any better than a parallel port version of MACH and lower cost THC, but you will have an Ethernet connected interface and you will get smoother motion. Is it worth 300 dollars? You will have to decide that. The "delays" in the ESS and the THC response are partly because of Windows and partly because of MACH3. The delays are meaningless as long as you have simple motion to do but using real time feedback and a direct Z drive to move the axis for THC starts to cause problems for higher speed THC. There are hundreds of ESS based plasma units running and some are fully functional based on added development and some custom programming for both the ESS . MACH3 and the plugins. Any system running on Windows will have SOME delay problems because its not a real time OS. In fact the standard version of Linux (i.e. Ubuntu) are not 100% real time either.
The solutions are varied. You can switch to a "stand alone" THC design that does not rely on any feedback to the control software so it can operate in its own world so there is no problem with delays. That comes with some compromise since you basically have a 2 axis cutting machine. If all you ever want to do is plasma cutting it is one way to go.

Linux running LinuxCNC can be made absolutely real time by using a real time kernel compilation and having the right hardware. In that Scene you let the control become the high speed THC and let it be a full 3 (or 4 or 5) axis CNC machine.

The Linux version does not use the ESS card. There are no ESS drivers for LINUX and it operates entirely different because there are no buffers. Motion is real time, feedback is real time , its free and it won't phone home to Msoft !

Each release of Windows is moving further away from running local applications and doing direct hardware control. Its all about he user "experience" and the human machine interface.

You might be surprised with modern day LINUX. You can pick and choose what "features " you want...even what desktop/display you want. There are thousands of free applications and several of the more common CAD and CAM software will run on either systems. File structures are identical and to network a LINUX PC inot a Windows network is actually easier than a Windows PC. Most of the same hardware works like USB devices, WIfi adapters, network cards. Pick a good GUI front end and your love for Windows will be compromised.

I am no Windows "hater".. In fact I hearken back to the DOS era and I have been on every release of Windows since ver 3.1. I still use WIN 7 for a lot of applications.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

Thanks again Tom, youir input has been very informative and unbiased so thanks for that.
I am naturally an impulse and I have to have it NOW, not six months later as later may come in my book :(
I sent you a message re one of your systems, and I might just re-install a linux version that I have and drop in on one of my spare laptops.
All may not be lost yet .

Deane.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Wadzii »

I only used mach3 with the Ethernet motion controller for about a hour before I was told by them that there was no real work around. The m03/m05 commands cause a pause that you cant control. On 14ga metal it was long enough that the arc would go out before it started moving. The only way to avoid that was to use m11/m10 which result in instant movement and no way to program a pierce delay.

UCCNC also supports m codes to turn thc on and off while in motion with out causing a pause. Something you cant do with mach3 no matter what motion controller you use.

If I had a pc with a parallel port I would probably still be using mach3. I use a laptop with my plasma table and needed more inputs than the usb motion controller had.

I'm using the cnc drive uc400eth, I have enough inputs for all of the homing and limit switches as well as the Proma Compact THC, e-stop, and ohmic probe. UCCNC also has adjustable acceleration and speed for THC moves, mach3 does not do any of that.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

Thanks Wadzil for your input as well.
I know SFA about G-Codes as I have only dealt with cnc routers before and just used V-Carve Pro to generate the tool paths needed and then output them in G-Code .TAP file that Mach3 understand and I just hit run and it would do it's thing, usually that is if I didn't stuff up somewhere
How do you find the Uc400eth for user friendly setting up etc. because the uc400eth is roughly the same price here in Oz as the Warp9 ESS but I would have to buy a license for the UCCNC software whereas I own Mach3 already.
So is that problem you mentioned with the M commands any different if another THC was used or is just a Mach3 problem itself ?
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

I really appreciate all the input guys but I am getting more frustrated by the minute and don't know which way to turn with budget, and here is another
opinion from a help me post that I placed on the Warp9 Forum.
"Quote:
Yes it works, I have been using ESS on a Dell Inspirion 2020 for production cutting now for 3 years. Started with Mach3 and switched to Mach4 and Windows 10 about 1 year ago. THC has been an issue, but as of last week I have a Neuron Lite THC installed and it has doubled my consumable life as well as increase cut quality. Andrew has a very in-depth approach to THC, also good support. Hopefully that answers some of your questions. Thanks Brian "
Can you see how I am confused ?

Just one more quick question for the supporters of the UCCNC software and motion controllers.
What is the backup and knowledge base like for a noob like me and is it a hard transition from Mach3 to UCCNC in regards to things like plug-in support for things like THC's from various vendors.
I'm leaning that way because I want to stay with what I know, as in a Win OS on a modern USB or Ethernet Controller

Thanks again,
Deane.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by beefy »

Dingo,

like Wadzii said, UCcnc has much better timing and now has the synchronous M205/M206 THC ON/OFF commands which Mach doesn't have unless you get a packaged system like Candcnc.

UCcnc is young but the developers seem very commited to improving it and are always working very hard. As an example when the UC400ETH first came out I immediately grabbed one and started doing lots of bench tests, injecting signals, measuring outputs, and testing timing down to microseconds with a logic analyser. To my horror one of the things I found the did not work was the M205/M206 THC ON/OFF commands. I immediately contacted Cncdrive and they confirmed my findings. They said this was going to require a complete rewrite of that part of the code and it was going to take some time to do. Despite the main software developer having a lot on his plate at the time with non business related issues the code was re-written and now works great. There were other bugs I discovered and reported and they ALL got fixed. Was I a bit disappointed that I bought a system with features that didn't work, yes a bit, but the flip side of the coin was seeing how the company sorted them all out ASAP. That's the type of manufacturer I want to go with.

Recently I mentioned to Cncdrive that if I was to buy a Neuron THC I would like TWO synchronous laser outputs, one to use for synchronous control of the torch and one as a synchronous THC enable output to the Neuron. They said it will be easy to add another synchronous laser output. Try getting any modifications to Mach3.

So this is the question you've got to ask yourself. Do you want to start your journey with a new modern system being continuously developed and improved as we speak, or do you want to go with an old buggy system with no further development. What you get is what you get. Regarding Mach4 just have a read through the Mach3/Mach4 forums and you'll find lots of complaints about how Mach4 is only half developed yet they've put it out there for sale.

UCcnc also has a Mach3 plugin for the UC400ETH so you can also use Mach3 if you want. I've just got a response that the new UC300ETH will also have a Mach3 plugin written for it too, once the final development is finished:
http://forum.cncdrive.com/viewtopic.php ... 7&p=83#p83

As for plugins and 3rd party manufacturers, I can't really say yet. UCcnc is still young and hasn't "exploded" yet but I've been calling it the Mach3 replacement for a while now, and I think it just a matter of time before it's going to be the one people are going for. As it grows then no doubt the 3rd party add-ons will start coming along.

The support forum at Cnczone is slowly gaining momentum but Cncdrive have only just got their forum online (just joined yesterday) so no doubt a few existing posters will go there from now on. Have a read of those too.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/uccnc-control-software/

http://forum.cncdrive.com/

There's also a guy called Terry Parker (Vmax549 on the forums) who has taken UCcnc as his Mach3 replacement. Terry is a plasma cutting veteran and is extremely knowledgeable on many thing CNC related. I'm certain he does not sleep because that would take away from him playing with CNC stuff. If he has moved to UCcnc for plasma and other tools then there must be a very good reason. Previous to this he was EXTREMELY active on the Mach3 forum but now seems fully focused on UCcnc.

Good luck, I know it's a hard choice.

Keith.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

Thanks Keith for the very Beefy and detailed reply :)
A lot of what you told me flew straight over my head, but I got the main points OK I think but I'm still very much a noob

Regarding UCCNC software and plug-ins etc , I emailed Andrew at Neuron THC http://neuroncnc.com/products/neuronalone about his product and UCCNC and he replied
" Hello Deane! Thank you for interesting to Neuron THC. One question - why you want to use uccnc? As I know, this controller is not support synchronous with motion commands M10Px/M11Px for THC on/off control from gcode. Now only Ess and HiCon controllers support this future. I have a lot customers who uses Ess. No problem. "

Most of which means nothing to me as I know nil about G-Code commands as yet, but I was very impressed wit his answers to all my other question regarding his THC and ESS & Mach3 and he replied very quickly as well which gained him some brownie points with me for service..
I am definitely not a fanboy for Mach3 or any other products and all I want is something that will give me the least amount of grief using a modern motion controller whether it be a CNCDrive Ethernet card or Warp9 ESS controller as they both are comparable on price here in Oz.

Thanks,
Deane
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by vmax549 »

Hi Guys, UCcnc is an intersting control /Controller software combination. ALL thc related functions are handled at eh CONTROLLER itself not in the controller software. Teh basci system UC400eth is ethernet and feaetures 2 full LPT ports of I/O

For THC control it has the following features

Thc on
thc off
Thc enable
Thc disable
Thc delay
Thc up
Thc down
Thc up emulation
Thc down emulation
Thc arc ok
Thc arc ok emulation
Thc anti corner drive
Thc anti down

Most are controlled 2 ways Sync and nonsync with button and Mcodes in Gcode.

There is ALSO THC outputs so that you may beable to control your outside THC controller as well

TO talk to a THC there is mobus RTU,TCP and ASCII and serial com and digitally through THC outputs

YES it can talk to a PM65 through rs485 using teh Hypertherm alternate ASCII com protocal

Teh UCCNC control is simple, easy to set up and run, Runs VERY WELL on Windows so if you retrofit you basically use everything you already have on hand.

It has an advanced Tragectory Planner for very SMOOTH motion and it is even being continously improved as they find better/faster methods of doing it (;-) Gotta love that part.

There is a screen editor so you can roll your OWN screen if needed.

There are several PLASMA screens already developed but not released yet.

Macro Wizards are coming soon so you can built your OWN conversational Macros/wizards that are called from Button or Mcode from Gcode.

SO that is about it in a nutshell, I am as happy with it as a pig with a NEW feedtrough(;-)

N
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by vmax549 »

Here is a list of the available Mcodes for thc control through Gcode.

(;-) TP

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Dingo745
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

Looks a very good alternative but too much technical detail for me it went way over my head , but still appreciated Thanks.
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by vmax549 »

Here is an example of one of the many possible conversational MacroWizards. ALSO in teh future there will be a WizardCam feature available to be able to take mulitple MacroWizards and assemble a complete part ready to cut. I Have tested it it IS COOL.

Nothing new there ??? You can use ANY macro wizard built to teh UCmacro wizard standard. My wiz ,your wiz ,store bought wiz (;-) Anybody can build one SO you are NOT limited to just what comes with some of teh current packages.

Also one of teh Cool to me Wizards is GcodeCam . It is a conversational Gcode programming Wizard. You can assemble Gcode and conversational moves in real time and watch it all show up in the toolpath display . If it does not look right FIX IT . It draws as you go so you get to see it created as you program it. Also it work with WizardCam as well so you can use a combination of MacroWiz code and GcodCam code to assemble a complete part assembly.

Well that is enough rambling from Me , But that is just the tip of teh iceburg of possiblities of UCCNC (;-).

THE next DIY TopDawg CNC control solution, (;-) TP
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by vmax549 »

I guess I should have put in teh picture (;-)

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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by vmax549 »

One last post on the subject, Here is ONE possible plasma screenset.

(;-) TP
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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by vmax549 »

Possible Plasma screen,

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Re: Ethernet Motion Controller and CNC Plasmas

Post by Dingo745 »

Nice one, Thanks.
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