Not really happy with PM65. Thinking of going with 45XP

[Jaked937]

My table is made by http://detrickdesign.com with a floating head, with auto touch off. It also has the water table that I keep up to proper height. As far as speeds, I have been using the book as a guideline and making small changes to attempt to get a better cut/longer life out of the consumables. I will try to measure and check the things you all are suggesting tonight/this weekend.

Whats the best way to measure these specifics? Run a file with the torch off and stop it during a cut and measure from there?

[gamble]

My table is made by http://detrickdesign.com with a floating head, with auto touch off. It also has the water table that I keep up to proper height. As far as speeds, I have been using the book as a guideline and making small changes to attempt to get a better cut/longer life out of the consumables. I will try to measure and check the things you all are suggesting tonight/this weekend.

Whats the best way to measure these specifics? Run a file with the torch off and stop it during a cut and measure from there?

Did this company sell you a fake version of sheetcam?

[Jaked937]

My table is made by http://detrickdesign.com with a floating head, with auto touch off. It also has the water table that I keep up to proper height. As far as speeds, I have been using the book as a guideline and making small changes to attempt to get a better cut/longer life out of the consumables. I will try to measure and check the things you all are suggesting tonight/this weekend.

Whats the best way to measure these specifics? Run a file with the torch off and stop it during a cut and measure from there?

Did this company sell you a printer version of sheetcam?

To be honest I don't know. It came loaded on the computer that came with the table.

[beefy]

When I hear some say things like they updated Sheetcam, I shake my head. That's treating a system like a black box and HOPING something is corrected by changing software. Gcode is easy to learn and follow for what I've mentioned above, and it greatly simplifies this type of troubleshooting. If you can learn to do what I said you will KNOW if the problem is in Sheetcam, simply by what gcode it gives you.

Sheetcam is part of the system. When I am trying to diagnose a problem I look at all parts of a system. Turns out I had been given a pirated version of Sheetcam and could not update it at all. They routinely update and improve the program. The version I had was at least two years old. If I would not have looked into it I would have never known and therefore not been able to address at least that problem. I don't think it affected the issues I was having with 0-21 but it sure made it where I could cut a circle rather than 100 little lines. No, I do not know how to read gcode yet. It is all part of the process. So Jake look at all aspects of your system you never know when you might find something you weren't even looking for that will help in another area. You are not less of an operator because you can't read gcode.

I've got to take your last sentence and strongly advise people to throw that crap in the bin.

You clearly say you do NOT know how to read gcode and yet somehow you have the experience to say, "You are not less of an operator because you can't read gcode". I can't quite figure out HOW you would know that if you don't understand it and have never experienced how it can help you if you do know it.

I've been on both sides of the fence and can clearly say it's made me a much better operator, and has served me well in many ways.
I've gave a clear case HOW understanding gcode can greatly help a user diagnose a problem and yet even after that you say knowing gcode does not make you a better operator.

Well, I knew it was a bad idea to offer this help. Like I said it often falls on deaf ears or worse, unknowledgeable members like yourself who think they know better.

[motoguy]

My table is made by http://detrickdesign.com with a floating head, with auto touch off. It also has the water table that I keep up to proper height. As far as speeds, I have been using the book as a guideline and making small changes to attempt to get a better cut/longer life out of the consumables. I will try to measure and check the things you all are suggesting tonight/this weekend.

Whats the best way to measure these specifics? Run a file with the torch off and stop it during a cut and measure from there?

Yup.

Get a set of $10 feeler gauges from your local auto parts store. Shut your PM85 off. Run the program (in step mode/single line mode, if you prefer). After it touches off the part, and raises to pierce height, press "motion hold", or whatever equivalent you have on your system (if it's in step mode, it'll stop until you press "run" again). Slide the feeler gauges between the torch and the part, and measure the gap. You will likely have to stack feeler gauges.

After you have that number, press run again. When it gets to cut height, motion hold again. Measure again. This is your cut height.

See how the 2 number compare to the book specs.

[jimcolt]

Running Finecut consumables without a height control system is not going to be successful. Expect very short nozzle life and poor cut quality. You will also get short life and poor quality with the 45amp (and larger shielded consumables without height control....though these parts are more foregiving than the Finecut consumables are. Without a properly functioning height control I cannot help solve the issues you mention. You might get away with no height control on a small 2 x 2 cutting table with limited cutting and limited cut quality expectations....still, I would not even recommend no height control for that size machine.

Regarding the air systems.....the size of the compressor or the pressure produced at the compressor means little when it comes to inlet pressure to the plasma cutter (any plasma cutter). A gauge should always be hard plumbed at the inlet on every installation. When air flows to the torch you will always see a lower pressure at the plasma inlet than at the compressor. This will vary depending on the ID of the piping or hose, the number and types of hose fittings, as well as any valves , filters, moisture traps, etc.. Everything in a plumbing system will add some sort of restriction. My home shop has a Kellogg-American compressor (draws 26 amps on 230 volt single phase), 26 x 230 = 5980 watts. divide the watts by 750....and you get close to 8 horsepower. For my Powermax85.....when my compressor is at its max pressure of 125 psi....and I have an 85 amp nozzle installed and air is flowing at the torch I read about 115 psi at the rear panel inlet. There is about 35' of 3/8" ID hose running directly from my compressor to the plasma inlet....no other filters, traps, or anything. There is about a 10 psi drop just in 35' of 3/8" ID hose. When no air is flowing at the torch the gauge at my compressor and the gauge at my plasma both read the same. This is the type of restriction that most often causes an 0-21 fault code from my experience....and it often occurs when the compressor is at the low end of its on/off cycle. Larger diameter hose and less restrictive fittings will improve this...a larger compressor has no effect.

In regards to the Powermax45 XP and the Powermax65 and 85 (I currently have all three in my shop).....the Finecut consumables cut identically with all three. The life is the same and the cut quality is the same. I actually have had to use all three systems recently with the same torch and same set of Finecut consumables....on 10 gauge, 12 gauge and 16 gauge material. I use the exact same cut specs on My Plasmacam CNC with all three systems. Book specs on cut speeds, book specs on cut height (except 14 gauge through 10 gauge I run between .070" and .075" cut height). The current Fine cut nozzle I am using has over 3000 starts and I am guessing a thousand or more feet of cut on it. Cut quality is pretty nice, and no error codes on the machine....unless I forget to turn the breaker on for the compressor (which I do often!) Jim Colt Hypertherm

[stonebriar]

Jim,

I have a PM45 with a machine torch, unfortunately bought one month before the new on came out. The manual says you can use the PM30 consumables in the PM 45 torch. Would this be the same a finecut for cutting?

Thanks
Rick

[Jaked937]

When I hear some say things like they updated Sheetcam, I shake my head. That's treating a system like a black box and HOPING something is corrected by changing software. Gcode is easy to learn and follow for what I've mentioned above, and it greatly simplifies this type of troubleshooting. If you can learn to do what I said you will KNOW if the problem is in Sheetcam, simply by what gcode it gives you.

Sheetcam is part of the system. When I am trying to diagnose a problem I look at all parts of a system. Turns out I had been given a pirated version of Sheetcam and could not update it at all. They routinely update and improve the program. The version I had was at least two years old. If I would not have looked into it I would have never known and therefore not been able to address at least that problem. I don't think it affected the issues I was having with 0-21 but it sure made it where I could cut a circle rather than 100 little lines. No, I do not know how to read gcode yet. It is all part of the process. So Jake look at all aspects of your system you never know when you might find something you weren't even looking for that will help in another area. You are not less of an operator because you can't read gcode.

I've got to take your last sentence and strongly advise people to throw that crap in the bin.

You clearly say you do NOT know how to read gcode and yet somehow you have the experience to say, "You are not less of an operator because you can't read gcode". I can't quite figure out HOW you would know that if you don't understand it and have never experienced how it can help you if you do know it.

I've been on both sides of the fence and can clearly say it's made me a much better operator, and has served me well in many ways.
I've gave a clear case HOW understanding gcode can greatly help a user diagnose a problem and yet even after that you say knowing gcode does not make you a better operator.

Well, I knew it was a bad idea to offer this help. Like I said it often falls on deaf ears or worse, unknowledgeable members like yourself who think they know better.

I'm not opposed to learning Gcode, just don't know enough about it currently. I guess it's time for some more research!

[Jaked937]

My table is made by http://detrickdesign.com with a floating head, with auto touch off. It also has the water table that I keep up to proper height. As far as speeds, I have been using the book as a guideline and making small changes to attempt to get a better cut/longer life out of the consumables. I will try to measure and check the things you all are suggesting tonight/this weekend.

Whats the best way to measure these specifics? Run a file with the torch off and stop it during a cut and measure from there?

Yup.

Get a set of $10 feeler gauges from your local auto parts store. Shut your PM85 off. Run the program (in step mode/single line mode, if you prefer). After it touches off the part, and raises to pierce height, press "motion hold", or whatever equivalent you have on your system (if it's in step mode, it'll stop until you press "run" again). Slide the feeler gauges between the torch and the part, and measure the gap. You will likely have to stack feeler gauges.

After you have that number, press run again. When it gets to cut height, motion hold again. Measure again. This is your cut height.

See how the 2 number compare to the book specs.

Thank you sir!

[littlefatbuddy]

When I hear some say things like they updated Sheetcam, I shake my head. That's treating a system like a black box and HOPING something is corrected by changing software. Gcode is easy to learn and follow for what I've mentioned above, and it greatly simplifies this type of troubleshooting. If you can learn to do what I said you will KNOW if the problem is in Sheetcam, simply by what gcode it gives you.

Sheetcam is part of the system. When I am trying to diagnose a problem I look at all parts of a system. Turns out I had been given a pirated version of Sheetcam and could not update it at all. They routinely update and improve the program. The version I had was at least two years old. If I would not have looked into it I would have never known and therefore not been able to address at least that problem. I don't think it affected the issues I was having with 0-21 but it sure made it where I could cut a circle rather than 100 little lines. No, I do not know how to read gcode yet. It is all part of the process. So Jake look at all aspects of your system you never know when you might find something you weren't even looking for that will help in another area. You are not less of an operator because you can't read gcode.

I've got to take your last sentence and strongly advise people to throw that crap in the bin.

You clearly say you do NOT know how to read gcode and yet somehow you have the experience to say, "You are not less of an operator because you can't read gcode". I can't quite figure out HOW you would know that if you don't understand it and have never experienced how it can help you if you do know it.

I've been on both sides of the fence and can clearly say it's made me a much better operator, and has served me well in many ways.
I've gave a clear case HOW understanding gcode can greatly help a user diagnose a problem and yet even after that you say knowing gcode does not make you a better operator.

Well, I knew it was a bad idea to offer this help. Like I said it often falls on deaf ears or worse, unknowledgeable members like yourself who think they know better.

Clearly, I do not claim to know better, I admitted not knowing how to read gcode. I am offering encouragement to a new member. I have ran my table for two years without reading gcode and Jake will be able to run his without reading Gcode. I am quite certain I could improve things and work on that everyday. It seems there is enough to learn in the beginning and I will learn gcode. Read carefully, I said NOT knowing Gcode does not make you LESS of an operator. Could you explain where in GCode it says "This just caused your blown out nozzles Jake" or "This just caused your 0-21 code" or "sorry your torch just cut off in the middle of the file for no apparent reason but here is the gcode as to why?" Oh yeah, it doesn't. Could you also explain how condescending and smart ass comments like this "unknowledgeable members like yourself who think they know better" help anyone. Oh yeah, they don't.

[beefy]

OK Littlefatbuddy,

let's take your comments step by step:

1) Clearly, I do not claim to know better, I admitted not knowing how to read gcode.
I suggested learning gcode to assist trouble shooting this problem. You then counteract that statement by saying "NOT knowing Gcode does not make you LESS of an operator", that is obviously claiming to know better. You may have "got by" and cut successfully for two years, that's all fantastic and whoopy doo. Obviously you've never been in a situation where understanding each line of gcode could help you troubleshoot something. Yes you can get by without knowing gcode if a situation never arises where gcode knowledge can help you.
Who is the lesser operator in a situation where you need to confirm the cam is giving you the correct gcode ?? the one who can have a quick glance and say "Yep that all looks good", or the one like yourself who's "fix" is to try a different cam version or do an update or whatever. Clearly in a case like that one of the operators is the "lesser" one.

2) I am offering encouragement to a new member.
Purpose of that statement ??????? are you saying I'm not. I'm offering suggestions then will benefit him greatly if he chooses to go that direction.

3) Could you explain where in GCode it says "This just caused your blown out nozzles Jake" or "This just caused your 0-21 code" or "sorry your torch just cut off in the middle of the file for no apparent reason but here is the gcode as to why?" Oh yeah, it doesn't.
Crikey, you are certainly a lesser operator and need to learn to read a little better. I never suggested learning gcode could help with the 0-21 error code problem. However, we know that problem can be caused by bad air so I gave 2 suggestions of testing for moisture and oil. Obviously you didn't get that.
The gcode part of my suggestion was all about the beginning of a cut, i.e. initial height sensing, pierce height, time of pierce, how long does it take to go from pierce height to cut height, etc, etc. If that is wrong then that can cause blown out nozzles. A quick look at your gcode can confirm the cam is spitting out what you EXPECT it should. Remember you are the operator programming what you want your table to do and the gcode tells you if it's doing exactly that. THEN you can single step each block of gcode with your cnc controller to CONFIRM your table is doing exactly what the gcode is telling it to do. At each stage of the single stepping you can for instance go and measure the height of your torch above the table and check for example the pierce height is what it's supposed to be.
Piercing too low - blown out nozzle
Piercing not long enough - blown out nozzle
Who's the lesser operator, the one who can do all that or the one who just WONDERS what is going wrong.

4) Could you also explain how condescending and smart ass comments like this "unknowledgeable members like yourself who think they know better" help anyone. Oh yeah, they don't.
Just like your comment about not knowing gcode does not make you a lesser operator. That certainly does not help anyone and apart from opposing what I suggested, is telling operators there's no benefit to learning gcode.
So I strongly stand by my "condescending and smart ass comments" about you. You do not have enough knowledge and experience to say not knowing gcode does not make you a better operator, especially when you state you don't know gcode, and thus have zero experience of how gcode knowledge can help you. Anyone can press the go button on a machine when everything is working correctly.

And finally I mentioned about THC and how it's necessary to keep the correct height once cutting commences.

So I think I pretty much covered most aspects of the ops problems. And I've explained how using gcode knowledge can help with tracking a possible cause of blown nozzles OR confirming that is NOT the cause, which is just as important.

Anyway I have something which will make you very happy, I don't think I'll be giving my help anymore. I've got better things to do with my hard earned knowledge than argue with "knowledgeable" members like yourself. I've came across too many like you here and I just can't be bothered any more.

[littlefatbuddy]

You could have spared us all the personal attacks and egotistical post and just went straight to the last paragraph.
Thanks, goodbye!!!

[beefy]

Goodbye Littlefatbuddy LOL.
Call it ego or whatever you will, I'm just trying to present facts and reason. You decided to counteract my advise so I came back with facts and reason.

For the ones interested, and to further explain why the statement "You are no less of an operator if you do not know gcode" is very bad advise for anyone.

Take Sheetcam, something a great many plasma cutting guys use. You have Code Snippets, Action Points, and those wonderful Path Rules (I love you Les). All of them give us the benefit of inserting custom gcode just about anywhere we want. Why on earth did Les create all those things if they are of no real benefit. I use them and love them, and can say with absolute certainty based on actual usage that having a basic knowledge of gcode for plasma use (not that difficult to learn), and put together with Sheetcam certainly makes you a much better operator, and most importantly a much more capable operator.

You can also easily modify a gcode file if you want (done it quite a few times). Put a piece of code in here, take a bit out there. It's all useful for when you need it.

[mdwalker]

I probably can't help you a whole lot with exact settings for your machine but I can tell you that if you want good cuts and good operation out of your setup with fine cut consumables then everything has to be set and working properly. There is no "close enough setting". It is either right or it's not. Make sure you physically measure your cut height with a gauge and that you measure your air pressure at the back of your machine as Jim suggested. It makes no difference what your compressor is set at or what the cutoff pressure is at the compressor. What matters is what is coming in to the back of your machine. If your table is functioning properly then I'm confident that Jim can help you get your plasma set up and working properly.

[jimcolt]

In my opinion the 45 amp shielded consumables for the Powermax45 work best all the way down to 26 gauge. The only advantage of the 30 amp T30 consumables is that they can cut at slower speed....so if your machine is unstable at the speeds needed by the 45 amp shielded parts...then maybe you will get a better cut with the T30 parts.

You can use the 45 amp shielded parts at less than 45 amps....I often used them at 30 amps on thin materials for better detail.

The short answer...the 30 amp T30 consumables do not cut nearly as well on 10 gauge and thinner as compared to the Finecut consumable used on the Powermax45xp, Powermax65, 85 and 105 systems.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

Jim,

I have a PM45 with a machine torch, unfortunately bought one month before the new on came out. The manual says you can use the PM30 consumables in the PM 45 torch. Would this be the same a finecut for cutting?

Thanks
Rick

[Jaked937]

Update: Looks like the majority vote here is that I need to purchase and install a THC but currently thats not in the budget. I ordered some new consumables, the fine cut shield, and made some changes in sheet cam. I also did some measuring and fine tuned from there. So far I have had pretty good success. I have not got the 0-21 code. The cut is pretty damn good all things considered. My only complaint is running at 225ipm I lose some detail on corners/sharp angles. Overall I'm feeling more relieved but I may still attempt to sell the PM65 and move down to the XP in order to gain the marking/engraving feature unless they come up with consumables that will work at 20A on the 65 to get the same results.

[Jaked937]

Also, is there any place I can go to download the Hypertherm PM65 tool files to shoot into Sheetcam instead of manually entering in each setting?

[motoguy]

http://www.plasmaspider.com/viewtopic.php?t=20340

[tcaudle]

Also, is there any place I can go to download the Hypertherm PM65 tool files to shoot into Sheetcam instead of manually entering in each setting?

It has the values in the tool but that is just in SheeCAM. It will modify the feedrate and the pierce height /cut but nothing else. You can get pre-configured toolsets for SheetCAM for all of the Hypertherm machines . If your setup does not load the values from SheetCAM to the controller you still have to put in the THC values by hand.

[tcaudle]

Go to www.candcnc.com and the downloads and find the SheetCAM support installer. It puts toolsets and POSTS in a folder on your C drive

[Jaked937]

Thanks guys