Mach 3 or Mach 4?

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Buckmaster1967
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Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by Buckmaster1967 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:37 pm

Hello,
I currently have a homemade 6ft x 11ft water table ran by Masso G1. Love the Masso unit, but am tired of trying to get a THC to work with it. Time to make a move. I figured Mach 4 would be the way to go, but not see much on the Mach 4. Also need to purchase a Board. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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djreiswig
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by djreiswig » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:41 am

Check out the Linux programs. I hear them recommended a lot on here. Search for robertspark. He's a strong proponent of it. And he's well versed in the ins and out of Linux.
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Buckmaster1967
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by Buckmaster1967 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:12 pm

djreiswig wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:41 am
Check out the Linux programs. I hear them recommended a lot on here. Search for robertspark. He's a strong proponent of it. And he's well versed in the ins and out of Linux.
I was reading about it last night after posting this. Looks promising. Thank you

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acourtjester
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by acourtjester » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:18 pm

After looking at the Masso site it does not appear Masso used either Mach 3 or 4, I think Robert uses UCCNC which can use Mach but also has its own software which is better. You may have Mesa Electronics mixed with Masso, Mesa is a Linux based unit that is gaining support. I am using UCCNC on my current table and it works fine, but not with Mach software. And I have bought the Mesa 7I76E to use on my next table (in the works).
http://www.mesanet.com/
https://www.masso.com.au/masso-video-tutorials/
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by robertspark » Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:22 pm

I have switched to linuxcnc from uccnc.

I still think uccnc is a good piece of software, but it doesn't do lathe / turn for me. development has slowed down since covid hit.

rod is the big supporter of linuxcnc / plasmac.

linuxcnc has a lot more options and is very much more controllable or adjustable.

Buckmaster1967
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by Buckmaster1967 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:37 pm

acourtjester wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:18 pm
After looking at the Masso site it does not appear Masso used either Mach 3 or 4, I think Robert uses UCCNC which can use Mach but also has its own software which is better. You may have Mesa Electronics mixed with Masso, Mesa is a Linux based unit that is gaining support. I am using UCCNC on my current table and it works fine, but not with Mach software. And I have bought the Mesa 7I76E to use on my next table (in the works).
http://www.mesanet.com/
https://www.masso.com.au/masso-video-tutorials/
You lost me. I am using the Masso G1 controller now. I plan on getting rid of it and move onto Mach or Linux. Just need to educate myself on my next move.

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by acourtjester » Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:17 pm

It seems Linux is the way to go, it is very fairly priced with free software and combined THC and ohmic sensor packages. It does require setting up a PC with Linux and learning the software. There is info here and on their web blog, some members here have gone with the Linux and have posts about their journey. I am still in the beginning stages, I have setup a PC and bought the electronics. I am working on the controller and will attach it to the table I have now to work out the finer details, before building a new table. There are videos on YouTube showing the software install and other helpful info.
https://store.mesanet.com/ http://linuxcnc.org/
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Buckmaster1967
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by Buckmaster1967 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:25 pm

acourtjester wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:17 pm
It seems Linux is the way to go, it is very fairly priced with free software and combined THC and ohmic sensor packages. It does require setting up a PC with Linux and learning the software. There is info here and on their web blog, some members here have gone with the Linux and have posts about their journey. I am still in the beginning stages, I have setup a PC and bought the electronics. I am working on the controller and will attach it to the table I have now to work out the finer details, before building a new table. There are videos on YouTube showing the software install and other helpful info.
https://store.mesanet.com/ http://linuxcnc.org/
Thank you! This is the info I been looking for. Main question. The laptop, it needs to be all Linux? Or Window 10 with Linux added, if that's possible. PC, need to have? Electronics? Thanks again for the heads up.

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by asuratman » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:18 am

Code: Select all

Thank you! This is the info I been looking for. Main question. The laptop, it needs to be all Linux? Or Window 10 with Linux added, if that's possible. PC, need to have? Electronics? Thanks again for the heads up.
You can get old pc with additional graphic card, the graphic card on board is not recommended since they share memory. If I am not wrong.

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by robertspark » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:41 am

in my opinion (read Thought!) linuxcnc would operate better with a pc with more actual cores, hence I looked at a 4 core i5 8350u fanless, which has 4x cores, each running at 1.7ghz, similar to this (not quite the same)

https://www.google.com/search?q=8350u+f ... oy8ZvrNGtM
the recommended (read easiest) route to testing and installing linuxcnc is to get a usb memory stick, download the bootable linuxcnc iso from here:

http://www.linuxcnc.org/iso/linuxcnc-2.8.0-buster.iso

download RUFUS or ETCHER
https://rufus.ie/en_US/
https://www.balena.io/etcher/

and copy linuxcnc to the usb memory stick

reboot the pc (you may have to go into the bios, try tapping DEL / F2 / F10 and change the boot order to boot from usb first)

then try the LIVE boot option to see what your latency is and if you can improve it by toggling settings in the bios to turn off things such as
hyperthreading
c-states
speedstep
all power saving settings

for Mesa hardware a servo thread with jitter under 100,000 is recommended, target under 50,000. I am running at about 32,000 stable.

for Mesa hardware, the base thread is not required as the Mesa does all of the fast stepping and synchronised motion (heavy lifting / precision motion) internally.

_____________________________________________

to test the jitter, open up / or start a terminal (in windows think dos / command prompt) and type or copy and paste

Code: Select all

latency-histogram --nobase --sbinsize 1000 --show
then you need to add some load to your pc, this is done by normally running a few instances of glxgears (I run 5 as it seems to provide a good load)

open up 5x new terminals (you can do it from 1 by modifying the syntax, but let's do it slowly) and type into each one:

Code: Select all

glxgears
move them around the screen as they will all start on top of each other.

it is also recommended that you browse the internet as well using Firefox.

the test should take about 15mins, but leaving it to run for longer may help.

the recommendation is to also go to YouTube and view a few clips.... this is what bumps my latency from about 17,000 jitter to 35,000

this will tell you if your pc is suitable for linuxcnc.

but note you will still need to disable the stuff listed above or you will get some poor numbers.

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by robertspark » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:44 am

amd Ryzen is not recommended as some have had some high latency numbers.... hence the latest and greatest is NOT always the best with Linux or a real-time operating system that needs consistent timing for actions to happen at the right time

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by robertspark » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:54 am

I have / run a fanless 5550u i7 (dual core), it is ok. latency is about 35,000 jitter for the servo thread.

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1s8puNXXX ... .jpg_.webp

recommended pcs tend to be the office pcs such as
Dell optiplex
IBM / Lenovo thinkcenter

avoid Nvidia or (newer) ATI graphics cards.

more (actual!) cores seem better than fewer.... then some guys have some really good latency numbers from old Pentium pcs too....

some are running odroid h2 plus SBC (small board computers).... but the network adapters are a little high spec (newer) than needed and they have to do a software fix (update) to get them to work. I am not a fan as I think they would benefit from more cooling (block of aluminium heat sink).... but each to their own.... I suspect that if they get hot they will automatically throttle their CPUs or graphics adapter (not good for linuxcnc as s real-time os)

https://www.odroid.co.uk/ODroid-H2

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by robertspark » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:15 am

some are running raspberry pi 4

it's still early days in my opinion.... especially if you are new to Linux.... if you choose to go that route, all I can say is good luck! it will probably be the future of linuxcnc as pcs die off.... yes I hear the screams but who knows the future. I think that COMPATIBLE linuxcnc pcs will become fewer given laptops are not recommended for power saving, and smoke and mirror technologies (for a real-time repetitive OS) like hyper threading, virtual cores c-states etc become fixed (possibly).....

stuff like the rpi (or specific industrial pcs. . MANO520PHGGA-Q370 ~ £210 Inc 20% vat and delivery, no CPU, no ram, just barebones ) will probably become the main source... but that is probably 10 years + away.... now some of us are no longer shackled to a desk 9-5 (and multiscreen pc) thanks to covid and now have laptops (with multiscreen docking stations) for cad applications on windows (day job requirement)

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by acourtjester » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:24 am

You can buy a refurb PC like this https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dell-Optiple ... /374746488
I changed out the hard drive for a SSD for about another $60. and did the install of Linux on it to us in the controller. I installed a remote power button so the PC can be located in the same inclose with the other table electronics.
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by robertspark » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:37 am

acourtjester wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:24 am
You can buy a refurb PC like this https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dell-Optiple ... /374746488
I changed out the hard drive for a SSD for about another $60. and did the install of Linux on it to us in the controller. I installed a remote power button so the PC can be located in the same inclose with the other table electronics.
that would be an ideal setup, all of my various pcs and laptops are ssd

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by acourtjester » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:39 pm

I have always use a portable controller due to shop space, the last 2 were a tool cart I converted.
controller cabinet (2).JPG
controller cabinet (5).JPG
But the supplier has stopped selling the cart, so I have had to go back to an earlier design of like a hand truck shape.
DSCN2032.JPG
Just adds to the fun of working in the shop and building things. :Yay

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Buckmaster1967
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by Buckmaster1967 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:02 pm

Thanks for all the info. Going to try out the Linuxcnc. End up ordering a Tower i7-4th 16GB 1TB SSD, Nvidia GT 730 Win10 PC , and a Philips 242B9T 24" Touch Screen Monitor IP54 dust and Water Resistant and a remote start switch with usb. Will place the pc in lexan case with filtered vents. Ordered a Mesa THCAD-10 and on back order list for the 7I96 STEP/IO Step & dir plus I/O daughtercard. Also ordered a Meanwell 24v 40 W power supply, already have a 5v power supply. Still debating if I should do split in stall with Linux and Window 10, or straight Linux.

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by djreiswig » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:47 pm

acourtjester wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:39 pm
But the supplier has stopped selling the cart, so I have had to go back to an earlier design of like a hand truck shape.
They have a newer version of that cart. It has 2 drawers now, but the rest looks pretty similar.
https://www.harborfreight.com/30-in-x-1 ... 56812.html
2014 Bulltear (StarLab) 4x8
C&CNC EtherCut
Mach3, SheetCam, Draftsight
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Buckmaster1967
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by Buckmaster1967 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:30 am

djreiswig wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:47 pm
acourtjester wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:39 pm
But the supplier has stopped selling the cart, so I have had to go back to an earlier design of like a hand truck shape.
They have a newer version of that cart. It has 2 drawers now, but the rest looks pretty similar.
https://www.harborfreight.com/30-in-x-1 ... 56812.html
Thanks, Have no need in a movable cart in my setup. My 6ft x11ft water table is not going to be moved around.

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by acourtjester » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:06 am

I had looked at that cart but the top is not deep enough and the single draw was large enough for the electronics I use.
The great thing about DIY is selecting the how you want to go. It seem that more are looking at the Linux setup and how they will apply it.
Buckmaster I hope you post how your build is going, sometimes more info helps other going on the same path. I am moving slowly due to I have a fully functional table and looking for more info as I go. :Yay :HaHa
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Buckmaster1967
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by Buckmaster1967 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:48 pm

acourtjester wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:06 am
I had looked at that cart but the top is not deep enough and the single draw was large enough for the electronics I use.
The great thing about DIY is selecting the how you want to go. It seem that more are looking at the Linux setup and how they will apply it.
Buckmaster I hope you post how your build is going, sometimes more info helps other going on the same path. I am moving slowly due to I have a fully functional table and looking for more info as I go. :Yay :HaHa
Yes, I will. Others insight can be very helpfull.

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by acourtjester » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am

Found this last night may help, calculation for the THCAD-10
https://jscalc.io/calc/NTr5QDX6WgMThBVb
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by robertspark » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:16 am

acourtjester wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:05 am
Found this last night may help, calculation for the THCAD-10
https://jscalc.io/calc/NTr5QDX6WgMThBVb
The problem with that is it does not do the THCAD-5 (5V).... but that is not really important....

As QTPlasmaC when you configure it can set up the THC as part of that process
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/pla ... onfiguring

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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by acourtjester » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:01 pm

Thanks for the additional info, I am still using a long stick to poke the Bear with. I will get there but slowly :HaHa .
I thought the THCAD-10 was so you used the 30:1 voltage divider to have a larger sample to work with and the THCAD-5 was for the Ohmic sensor.
I have just about finished the controller enclosure for the electronics, PC and the Monitor, so I can start the assembly of the Mesa components and Motor drivers and power suppliers. My plan is to connect that to my existing table for testing, before building the new table base.
DIY 4X4 Plasma/Router Table
Hypertherm PM65 Machine Torch
Drag Knife and Scribe
Miller Mig welder
13" metal lathe
Small Mill
Everlast PowerTig 255 EXT

robertspark
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Re: Mach 3 or Mach 4?

Post by robertspark » Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:33 pm

Sounds like you are making good + steady progress (I have a mountain of wires.... not really I've nearly got them all wired in, sorting I/O's this evening)

THCAD-5 will (imo) be good for a
50:1 (which is what I have / am using) zero to 255V full scale reading.
probably 40:1 with a zero to 205V full scale reading
THCAD-10 will (imo) be good for anything else:
30:1 - zero to 310V
21.1:1 zero to 221V
20:1 zero to 210V

below 20:1, then look at adding resistors to the THCAD10

you can add resistors to the THCAD5, and increase its range too...

I am not using the THCAD ohmic sense (yet) but I may change my mind, I've been happy with my manual adjustable ohmic probe and its range + I don't use a water table.

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