Where is everyone?

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Joe Jones
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Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

PlasmaCam has sold THOUSANDS of tables, but there are maybe ... SIX owners here? :Sad

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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by DXF »

Joe Jones wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:31 pm PlasmaCam has sold THOUSANDS of tables, but there are maybe ... SIX owners here? :Sad

Joe
Dave's not here...... :lol:
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by adbuch »

Try the Plasmacam Owner's Community Online Forum or one of the two Plasmacam Facebook groups.
David

https://owners-community.com/index.php? ... 545d197f9c

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PlasmaCAM.Tips

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1124877220943063
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

Yeeeaaaahhhhh .... I have invested about $150,000.00 into PlasmaCam tables, parts, accessories, and software since 2012. I have been a strong advocate of their tables and software for YEARS.

I have contributed untold THOUSANDS of hours of my time to helping other PlasmaCam owners and DesignEdge users to get the most out of their investments without any compensation from PlasmaCam, via telephone calls and FREE online training sessions, and personal visits to their locations.

With the help of a friend, I have developed a rail riser kit that gives the table 6" of Z axis travel. This opens up all kinds of doors for added capability.

I am designing a new pipe cutter that will make table owners sing my praises! :HaHa It is so superior to the PlasmaCam unit that people will wonder why PlasmaCam didn't do it this way at the beginning.

I sent over $32,000.00 to PlasmaCam to purchase FOUR Samson 510 tables during a 25% off sale (buy 3, get one FREE! :Yay ) for the purpose of constructing a Bed-and-Breakfast seminar school here at my home, to train up to eight people (four couples) on the use of their tables and the software, during 2,3 or 4-day seminars. After PlasmaCam basically told me to POUND SAND at my suggestion that they might want to contribute ... SOMETHING ... ANYTHING to the effort, I had them refund my money and scrubbed the idea.

I continue to train people online at no charge, and I occasionally pay personal visits to their homes or offices to train them on the software, and to help them do more with their purchase.

I routinely encourage people to bite the bullet and spend the extra money (up to $7,000.00 :Wow ) on the software upgrades that truly make the table fantastic ...

Advanced Design Upgrade
Advanced Machine Control
Advanced Height Control Upgrade
Automatic Nesting Upgrade
Customizable Size Upgrade
Full 3D Upgrade

So PlasmaCam has BANNED me from posting on The Owners Community. :Sad I won't go into details, but suffice it to say your "private messages" on The Owners Community are NOT private. They READ, SHARE and ARCHIVE E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. Your phone calls to PlasmaCam are also recorded and archived.

I dropped Facebook long ago. I started one of the Facebook PlasmaCam groups, and did not shut it down correctly when I left at a time when I was considering selling off "Everything PlasmaCam" from my shop and moving to another platform, so someone else moved in as admin of the group, and it still exists today. However, I don't DO Facebook! So that is no longer an option.

Joe
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by rdj357 »

All out busy making money.

I teach a little, make some cool accessories, and have fun making cash with the tables I own. I do OK and have fun meeting owners from all over the country.
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

Yeah … I really need to get motivated again. This whole covid, end-of-the-world, zombie apocalypse hoax has really made me not care much about anything. Not getting political here. I am just tired of the overwhelming STUPID that has apparently infected tens of millions of sheeple.

I am currently shopping for a powder coat oven. I inherited a nice powder coat system through some horse trading, but of course … that is like inheriting an engine and transmission. You don’t have a car until you buy a chassis, and an interior, and wheels, and ….

So I am currently looking at 6x6x10 foot LP gas ovens. Maybe larger? 20 foot for long hand rails and such. 30 foot?? And I need a spray booth, and rolling carts, and a wash bay, … and … and …

The summer heat is another deterrent. I LOVE Kentucky but I do miss that SoCal DRY weather. That is ALL I miss about SoCal. Well … maybe In-n-Out Burgers … bikini clad young women playing volleyball on the beach … and the motorcycle rides along the coast …

It just seems as if the general level of communication among table owners had died off.

Joe
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by SegoMan DeSigns »

Joe Jones wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:53 am Yeah … I really need to get motivated again. This whole covid, end-of-the-world, zombie apocalypse hoax has really made me not care much about anything. Not getting political here. I am just tired of the overwhelming STUPID that has apparently infected tens of millions of sheeple.

I am currently shopping for a powder coat oven. I inherited a nice powder coat system through some horse trading, but of course … that is like inheriting an engine and transmission. You don’t have a car until you buy a chassis, and an interior, and wheels, and ….

So I am currently looking at 6x6x10 foot LP gas ovens. Maybe larger? 20 foot for long hand rails and such. 30 foot?? And I need a spray booth, and rolling carts, and a wash bay, … and … and …

The summer heat is another deterrent. I LOVE Kentucky but I do miss that SoCal DRY weather. That is ALL I miss about SoCal. Well … maybe In-n-Out Burgers … bikini clad young women playing volleyball on the beach … and the motorcycle rides along the coast …

It just seems as if the general level of communication among table owners had died off.

Joe
"S" add that to your PC Oven. (thank me later :HaHa )

I am about to go down the PC hole, the thing about ovens is the size / numbers of parts being cooked if your doing a small job you don't want to pay to heat a 20'. So you need several sizes to keep the heating cost per part down. I will probably build my own like everything else I have.
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

Right! you don't need a 20 foot over to powder coat three keychains!

It is a rabbit hole, for sure. I just hate the though of buying small, only to then buy medium, and then large, and then EXTRA large ...

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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by SegoMan DeSigns »

Here is an article that has links on building your own, smaller ovens can be a toaster or kitchen oven. I think the limiting factor for me will be just how big of parts do I want to wrestle on a daily basis. I just get tired of waiting on the projects to be finished by the PC place 100 miles away..

https://www.powdercoatguide.com/
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

I understand! Here in Franklin, we have a restaurant supply company that sells new and used restaurant equipment. They have dozens of small to large boxy things that were either used to keep things cold or warm. They are generally stainless steel on the outside, and either aluminum or stainless on the inside.

I got with them some time ago, about modifying one of their bigger boxes to make an oven. We were well into the planning stage, when they ran into the gu'mint. The box was not rated for the 400 to 500 degree temperature I needed it to maintain for an hour or so. So they didn't want to create something that could not receive the blessing of the gu'mint. They told me to buy an over MADE for powder coating.

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Re: Where is everyone?

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SegoMan DeSigns wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:50 pm Here is an article that has links on building your own,
https://www.powdercoatguide.com/
Thank you. I did already view that site. I have no issue with building the box. I am a (former) AWS certified welder/fabricator. But it seems I can ONLY find the controllers for ELECTRIC heat. I cannot locate an LP GAS PC oven controller to purchase. The companies that make them will not sell them independent of the booths, and most of the cost is the controller and burner(s) anyway. Again, everyone is afraid to make something that doesn't have the gu'mint's blessing.

I am looking for somethin in the $10K to $15K range.

Joe
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by rdj357 »

I have 2 regular electric residential ovens that I use for small pieces. I have 2 larger ovens that I have built myself, both gas powered by Carlin EZ GasPro conversion burners. One is 4’ wide, 3’ deep, 8’ high inside clear and the larger was originally 10’ deep but I am expanding to 7’6” wide x 7’6” high x 19’ deep. The smaller is built in my shop using metal 2x6 studs and unfaced fiberglass insulation, the large is built inside a 20’ shipping container the same way. I used sheet metal for interior/exterior walls/ceiling as needed. Small is just the concrete floor of the shop for ease of rolling in the rack - larger has 2x4 studs and 10 gauge floor with same insulation. I do all my own control wiring using PID controllers but that ability is the advantage of being an HVAC contractor for so long.

Our heat indices are supposed to be 105F plus most of the coming week here in Oklahoma so I won’t be doing much besides fixing people’s air conditioners all week. LOL Communication between owners has always been sparse. I don’t notice that it’s any more or less than normal across all the forums. The Owner’s Community used to be the go to forum but with the increase in social media use, if any of them are dying off, it is that one.

It is always a good idea to keep politics and conspiracy theories separate from plasma cutting. I have a strict no politics rule for all my classes. It is just too divisive and it’s more important that we focus on what we have in common, plasma cutting, than it is to try to convince someone you’re right and they’re wrong about some policy, politician, or even now pandemic. That conversation can be had after class at dinner as long as no one comes back to class all pissed off at each other! 🙄😂
Last edited by rdj357 on Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

rdj357 wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:30 am "I have 2 larger ovens that I have built myself, both gas powered by Carlin EZ GasPro conversion burners. One is 4K’ wide, 3rd deep, 8’ high inside clear ..."
Wow! 4,000 feet wide?! That is HUGE :HaHa Sounds like a good oven.
and the larger was originally 10’ deep but I am expanding to 7’6” wide x 7’6” high x 19’ deep.
Yeah, that is about the size I am looking at. I guess I will have to bite the bullet and get a small, medium and large oven (eventually).
The smaller is built in my shop using metal 2x6 studs and unfaced fiberglass insulation, the large is built inside a 20’ shipping container the same way. I used sheet metal for interior/exterior walls/ceiling as needed. Small is just the concrete floor of the shop for ease of rolling in the rack - larger has 2x4 studs and 10 gauge floor with same insulation. I do all my own control wiring using PID controllers but that ability is the advantage of being an HVAC contractor for so long.
I am wondering why people use insulation, rather than drywall as the insulator. I would think that three layers of drywall would provide the heat insulation. That is what they use in fire safes, after all.

I can build the box. Finding the right LP GAS controller(s) is the trick. I have not found them available so far, without buying the whole oven. I am currently looking at the offerings by Columbia Coatings, who make an oven that can be expanded in modules, but I would rather build my own.

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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by rdj357 »

Joe Jones wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:09 am
Wow! 4,000 feet wide?! That is HUGE :HaHa Sounds like a good oven.

I am wondering why people use insulation, rather than drywall as the insulator. I would think that three layers of drywall would provide the heat insulation. That is what they use in fire safes, after all.

I can build the box. Finding the right LP GAS controller(s) is the trick. I have not found them available so far, without buying the whole oven. I am currently looking at the offerings by Columbia Coatings, who make an oven that can be expanded in modules, but I would rather build my own.

Joe
Lol dang autocorrect! I fixed it. :HaHa

I use PID controllers - for the smaller oven a single output is just fine. For the large oven I have ordered a 3 output controller and used relays to stage it into 3 stages with 2 burners - one burner is configured for 300k BTUH, one for 150k BTUH so the highest stage will be both on, then high only. Then low only giving me 450k, 300k, 150k and off.
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Re: Where is everyone?

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Okay, I admit that I know nothing about controlling heat, and BTUs, and stuff.

I am wondering why a single burner is not capable of keeping an oven with a variable internal cu. ft. volume at a constant temperature.

In my mind (the part that still seems to work :HaHa ) it seems that a large oven with a moveable interior wall could be heated successfully with a single burner that is rated for the maximum volume of the oven, and only run at say ... 5% to 100% of duty cycle based on the area requiring the heat. When 30% of the oven space is used, the heater would run 30% of the time to maintain temperature.

My thought was to use a 40 foot storage container for the frame. Inside, insulated walls and ceiling with sheet metal lining, etc. The burner would be on top at the front. Air ducts in the walls with individually controllable doors would contain the heated air to the segment of the container needing the heat, with everything behind the moveable rear wall being left relatively cool.

Inside of this creation would be a moveable insulated wall on a track system, with the proper seals around the edges, etc., much like the piston of a bicycle pump. The oven would be about 7 feet wide x 8 feet tall, and then the DEPTH would be determined by the size of the piece(s) being cooked. So a "small" oven could be made by bringing the wall forward to say ... within 24" of the doors. A fan, or a series of fans could be used to circulate the air through baffles in the walls from top to bottom, and sequentially from the (current) rear to the front of the chamber as needed.

My thought is that for small pieces, I would only heat the front 24" of space. For larger items, the wall could be moved rearward, which would require a longer duty cycle of the single burner, and perhaps employing extensions of air ducts to maintain the rear to front even air flow and temperature. For long hand rails, the interior wall could be moved toward the rear of the container, giving me an oven of 20+ feet of length or more, up to the full interior length of ... 39 feet? Some space would be used for the interior wall thickness, and the mechanism behind it which moves it through the chamber.

WHY does it become more complicated to keep THIS oven configuration at a constant temperature with a simple, SINGLE "PID" controller? It would seem that the internal temperature would dictate how long the burner duty cycle would run, based on the BTUs needed to maintain the same temperature throughout a larger volume of air space.

After all, my home heater is the same and doesn't change, even though the volume of air in my home DOES change as I close off the air vents of unused rooms in the winter which changes the volume of air needing to be heated, and subsequently measured by a SINGLE thermostat. I don't need additional controllers or fancy electronics. The heater simply cycles less often when there is less air to heat in the house, and MORE often when the whole house must be kept warm. I get the same results with the A/C. Less to cool? Run less often.

What am I missing? I have talked with salesmen about "PID" controllers, and "PLC" controllers and more. They seem to feel that simply expanding the volume of the oven while circulating hot air from the rear of the oven to the front while simultaneously moving that hot air from top to bottom becomes more complicated as the volume increases. I am thinking that the burner simply runs longer, or fires more often over (n) minutes when there is more air to keep at temperature. We are only talking about a powder coat cycle of what ... 60 minutes or so?

Does the internal temperature of a U-Haul moving van heat up LESS quickly, or to a lesser high temperature than the interior of a a small passenger car, given both of them sitting in a parking lot in the hot sun? Perhaps that is a bad example, as the sun's heat source is not controlled (ON and OFF), and there is no air circulation in either vehicle to maintain a constant temperature.

Help me to understand why increasing the volume of a closed chamber becomes more complicated to heat when the chamber volume increases.

Joe
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by djreiswig »

I think it has to do with the large burner cycling to heat a small area. Maybe like using a jet engine to heat your home oven. It would run an incredibly short time and then shut off while the oven cooled. I think the temperature would overshoot on the top end and then overshoot on the bottom end by the time the burner got lit again. If it didn't cycle off, and only ramped down it would most likely not be able to cut back enough to keep the smaller volume from overheating.
I think the staged burner approach would probably work the best.
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

Fair enough. What about this concept? I made a short video to explain. After all ... a picture really IS worth a thousand words!

Joe

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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by SegoMan DeSigns »

Keep in mind a container sets on a trailer, so if your going to do trailers or custom truck beds a 10' door is going to be needed (a mistake one of the local shops made).
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Re: Where is everyone?

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SegoMan DeSigns wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:29 am Keep in mind a container sets on a trailer, so if your going to do trailers or custom truck beds a 10' door is going to be needed (a mistake one of the local shops made).
??? :-? A 40-foot shipping container sets on the ground. I do understand the advantages of having the additional width, though. Maybe I can frame up a simple BIG BOX out of steel studs and that high temp insulation. I could wrap the whole thing in the traditional red and white barn tin, with a concrete floor.

Either way, what are your thoughts on the concept depicted in the video?

Joe
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by rdj357 »

I am intimately familiar with BTU's, thermodynamics, and controls as I have enjoyed a 28-year career as an HVAC/R contractor.

Your concept would absolutely work. It would be cost prohibitive. Any potential savings in energy usage over not cycling a larger space would be negated by the initial cost of construction. I think one improvement might be to build a way with controls to cycle the burners in stages as the oven size grew. Overall a very good concept - maybe the answer is to reduce the number of burners and door positions? That could quickly bring the cost down and the efficiency up.

A good estimate for powder coat ovens is 150 watts/cubic foot. For your example, that's 128 cubic feet per section or about 65,500 BtuH of heat. I use Carlin EZ Pro burners and they are 50k BtuH on the low end (adjustable up to 275,000). So if you set each at that then at full load, assuming you need a couple feet end to end for insulation/mechanism and get 19 sections - you'd be burning at a rate of 1.25MM BtuH. That is quite a load to cycle on/off and would be tremendously better to cycle in stages which could be done with controls. The bad thing is, those burners are $700 each wholesale so you're talking about $13,300 in just burners not yet counting engineering combustion chambers, high-temp fans, the moving wall, etc.

Anyway - it's a good idea and hopefully the numbers help you look at the design and decide how best to refine and implement a plan.
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Re: Where is everyone?

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What the ?!? I typed a reply, and when I clicked SUBMIT, it went back to LOG IN, and the reply was lost. :cry:

Ugh. I'm not going to type it again.

Robert, you obviously have the knowledge and experience on this topic. In a nutshell, rather than a burner (or a series of burners) that can be turned UP or DOWN with a variable BTU output and complicated, programmable controllers, I am thinking of a single ON/OFF LP GAS burner with a constant (n) BTU output. This is how RV water heaters work.

Think of a hot air balloon. During a flight, the burner is either ON or OFF. There is no alteration of the heat source. Longer burn time = More heat = UP. Shorter burn time = Less heat = DOWN. BTUs are measured in burn time only. Pull the cord, flame heats balloon.

Given that a single "section" of the entire chamber is 8x8x2 'deep, what are your thoughts on one single burner at the door, with a device to monitor the interior temperature at the door (section #1) that will fire the burner as needed to maintain a temperature range? A series of squirrel fans on the roof could effectively circulate the heat in a "dual slinky" fashion, drawing air from the top center of each two foot section and expelling the hot air down each wall at the bottom of the next section to the rear through slanted ducting. Heat would move from the top of section 1 to the bottom of section 2, 2 to 3, and so forth.

It doesn't cost much to run fans. The number of fans that would run throughout the bake cycle would be determined by how many sections are being heated, with those fans behind the wall NOT running.

I really don't know how critical it is to maintain a temperature during the powder coat process. Yes, "Cook at 375 degrees." but can the oven momentarily fluctuate between 370 and 380? Or 365 and 385? I cannot imagine that this would be a problem, because it is the METAL at temperature that cooks the powder. So brief fluctuations in air temperature don't SEEM to be an issue.

A good estimate for powder coat ovens is 150 watts/cubic foot. For your example, that's 128 cubic feet per section or about 65,500 BtuH of heat. I use Carlin EZ Pro burners and they are 50k BtuH on the low end (adjustable up to 275,000)

Are you saying that a burner must run at 100% during the entire cook cycle, to keep one section (two feet depth) of the oven AT temperature? Or does this 65K BTU burner kick on and off during the bake cycle?

I guess what I am asking is, if I heat the entire interior of the container (aprox 8x8x39) and maintain a temperature of 375 degrees for the bake cycle, CAN that be done with a single burner as I described, even if it is running full time during the bake cycle, while relying on the fans to disperse the heat evenly thoughout the chamber?

Joe
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

rdj357 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:05 am I
A good estimate for powder coat ovens is 150 watts/cubic foot. For your example, that's 128 cubic feet per section or about 65,500 BtuH of heat. to refine and implement a plan.
Ah, I see where I am confused!

128 cu. ft. x 150 watts ... 128 x 150 = 19,200. How did you arrive at 65,500? I am not doubting you. I just don't understand the math via the example you posted. Is that calculated at 3.4 BTU per watt? :roll:

Ah! 3.4 BTU per watt. So 511 watts x 128 cu ft = 65,408. What did I win? :HaHa

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Re: Where is everyone?

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Joe Jones wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:55 am
SegoMan DeSigns wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:29 am Keep in mind a container sets on a trailer, so if your going to do trailers or custom truck beds a 10' door is going to be needed (a mistake one of the local shops made).
??? :-? A 40-foot shipping container sets on the ground. I do understand the advantages of having the additional width, though. Maybe I can frame up a simple BIG BOX out of steel studs and that high temp insulation. I could wrap the whole thing in the traditional red and white barn tin, with a concrete floor.

Either way, what are your thoughts on the concept depicted in the video?

Joe
That was a dimensional reference (and yes they are transported by trailer inland so they can be set on the ground) :HaHa

The use of containers as an over requires special considerations as the flooring, paint and sealants are combustible. Your concept in the video appears to be a Rube Goldberg design I try to use the KISS concept (Keep It Simple Steve) I have not put much thought into it though so there may some merits to it thou . Have you seen the rolling ovens they do street light poles with?

Again this revolves around what jobs you want to do..
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by Joe Jones »

Well ... that is the $64,000.00 question.

I might build a 'YUGE oven :Yay and never use the entire length, or even half of it. I just don't like to play the eternal upgrade game. That is why I bought the Full Monty of DE upgrades when I bought the table. I didn't want to trudge along the drip - drip - drip incremental improvement road.

They say, "If you build it, they will come." Just as the 510 table makes it possible to take on jobs that the smaller table owners could or would not tackle, a larger oven WILL bring the bigger jobs, once the word gets out. The local welding shop in town that has been there for a hundred years or longer told me, "You build an oven THAT size, and I'll keep you busy!" They do all of the hotel railings, stairways, and large farm machinery in this area, and most of it gets powder coated at a place about 50 miles away now. I am only a few miles from their shop. Their shop is a literal time capsule, with huge machines that were driven by belts powered by MULES walking in circles out back! They still use them, but they have been converted to electric power now.

So I guess I have to ask myself, "Do I REALLY want to take on 30-foot hand railings, and antenna tower segments, and long trailer frames?" The money would be nice, but I am really wondering if I have the energy required to do something like that. Then again, there are lots of young people with good backs who are looking for work too.

Maybe I should just abandon the whole idea :Like and go with the small Eastwood oven for $6K-ish, and stick to smaller jobs.

Lately, my favorite song is "I wish I was 18 again" sung by George Burns. :Sad

Well, out to the shop. I am building that pipe cutter, s-l-o-w-l-y. I hope to have it working by Saturday (08/07).

Joe
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Re: Where is everyone?

Post by SegoMan DeSigns »

Big jobs means big screw compressor's, blast pot's, another 40' container for blasting and several fork lifts. One each don't cut it as they always break down. A paid 2-3 man crew and a steam cleaner.. So there you have it I just blew your 64K twice over..
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