Hypertherm SYNC consumables pierce and cut time

[rick_b]

How many pierces and inches/mm of cut are users getting from their SYNC consumables?
30-45a FINECUT?
45A?
65A?
85A?
105A?

[DieselFumes]

Never used them and hope not to but I am curious what folks are seeing with these. Of course life pierce and cut life is very dependent on air quality and proper user settings but it would be nice to get a ballpark figure averaged out for the average user.

[adbuch]

I understand that Robert Johnson has been using the Sync cartridges with great success.
David

[rdj357]

They work great but I've given up on trying to convince anyone whose mind is made up beforehand.

[adbuch]

Robert - I hear what you are saying! At first - I was skeptical, but the more I find out the more I am liking the potential of the new Sync consumables (actually not so "new" anymore). I'm still on the older cutters, but would not hesitate to buy one of the newer ones - or at least switch the the adapter to use the Sync cartridges with my older Duramax torches - if the need arose.

David

[cutnweld]

Robert, do you get a better cut vs duramax stack?

[rdj357]

Robert, do you get a better cut vs duramax stack?

I believe that I do. I must say that I am not at all displeased with the quality of Duramax consumables. FineCut on 20-14 gauge are great cuts with the cartridge and the higher pierce height helps with life and quality over that lifetime, I believe.

Is it a staggering difference? No. Do I believe it is better, yes and the reason I attribute that to is that the cartridge has an electrode and nozzle engineered to work at that specific amperage.

[cutnweld]

I can see that for thinner metal. I agree with the higher cut height helping with longer life, I found it the same. But I rarely cut anything that thin. Most of what I do is 1/4 and beyond, often much thicker. To me, when I am cutting way beyond capacity and the flame stops going thru and rooster tailing out behind, it can wreck a nozzle in a hurry. Its times like that I would much sooner replace a 12 dollar nozzle vs a 80 dollar CAD cartridge. When I cut thin, I like the finecut. Best deal of all, I bought 4 old style cartridges, used them for as long as they lasted and was given 4 new ones for free due to the upgrade.I was fine with that!

[rdj357]

Haha - nice! I've mentioned in previous discussions that I helped a customer with getting their 85 set up and we cut a full sheet of pipe flanges from 3/4 material using one 85a cartridge with no warning for end of life at any time. It was cutting as good on the last flange as it had on the first. I haven't had a similar project with a regular 85a stack to compare yet so I can't speak to a direct comparison.

[cutnweld]

I understand. But when you cutting thicker than 1"... close to 2"..... Things don't always go as you wish and tips go bad... could get expensive with SYNC.

[rdj357]

I understand. But when you cutting thicker than 1"... close to 2"..... Things don't always go as you wish and tips go bad... could get expensive with SYNC.

OK, I'll bite..... Which Hypertherm are you using to cut this 'close to 2" ' material?

The 105 is recommended at 1.25" and rated at 1.5" with hand torch severance cutting at 2".

The 125 is NOT a SYNC system and it would be the recommended unit for 1.5" with rating up to 1.75" and hand severance of 2.25".

I mean, I've pushed past the limits in odd situations a little (1.25" with a Powermax 65) but to claim you regularly want to cut 'close to 2" ' material with anything less than a 125 doesn't make much sense to me.

[SegoMan DeSigns]

I understand. But when you cutting thicker than 1"... close to 2"..... Things don't always go as you wish and tips go bad... could get expensive with SYNC.

OK, I'll bite..... Which Hypertherm are you using to cut this 'close to 2" ' material?

The 105 is recommended at 1.25" and rated at 1.5" with hand torch severance cutting at 2".

The 125 is NOT a SYNC system and it would be the recommended unit for 1.5" with rating up to 1.75" and hand severance of 2.25".

I mean, I've pushed past the limits in odd situations a little (1.25" with a Powermax 65) but to claim you regularly want to cut 'close to 2" ' material with anything less than a 125 doesn't make much sense to me.

cutnweld uses his 85:

https://www.plasmaspider.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=35583


I was going to put a 125 on my table but it is a 480 3p minimum on voltage requirements, that upgrade would have cost me 10 years of sync consumables cost..

I did all of this 3/4" sheet on one nozzle / electrode ($10) and harvested the rest of the sheet w / less than 5 gal bucket of scrap;

[SegoMan DeSigns]

I fall into the "If it ain't broke - don't fix it" category on the new sync system, I posted these numbers when it was first released by Hypertherm:


Here is my rough cost break down on 65A consumables (I normally run 2 nozzles for every electrode)

$6
$6
$8
--
$20 / 2 = $10 per change avg Vs $53 for the SYNC setup So that is $43 savings per change out.


If you change your consumables twice per:

Month that's $86 x 12 = $1,032 / yr
Week $86 x 52 = $4,472 / yr
Day $86 x 5 x 52 = $22,360 / yr

This is what I did to organize "New" and "in Use" consumables:

From what I am reading the Fine cuts are providing a better cut but I always get good cuts with the older ones.. is it worth the price difference is the big question.

[cutnweld]

Robert, I agree that it doesn’tmake sense to cut what I am with 85 amps. I do it because our power company would charge at least 100,000 to run 3p to my shop, after which o would need to spend a pile more on wiring. I’m not trying to be smart, I am simply trying to make my payments while feeding my four preschoolers and every where I can save is a bonus imo. In the job mentioned in the post segoman linked, I figure being able to change out only tip instead of an expensive cartridge saved me around $200 if I remember correctly I put 3 tips in that would have cost around 300 cad if sync. Now to be fair they were not shot but worn enough i they wouldn’t go thru the thick stuff as well. And I realize Hypertherm was-is not trying to cater to fellows like me that overuse our machines, however I am glad I got in the loop when the good old power max was still made!

[rdj357]

I fall into the "If it ain't broke - don't fix it" category on the new sync system, I posted these numbers when it was first released by Hypertherm:


Here is my rough cost break down on 65A consumables (I normally run 2 nozzles for every electrode)
...

Oh yes, I remember the long threads and big discussions and seeing these numbers. I do agree that you are correct, SYNC is absolutely more expensive than the Duramax stack in the long run based solely on consumable cost. I do figure time into my equation as well as ease of use for multiple operators so that's a small factor in mine. I also don't see where you figure ever changing your shield or swirl ring. Those are also consumables and must be replaced. The swirl ring not so often but the shield absolutely wears and affects cut quality to the point of needing to be replaced. Again, I agree with you that SYNC costs more to run so don't need a spreadsheet breakdown adding those neglected numbers back in but they are, in fact, a cost as well.

The SYNC cartridge job that I mentioned in my post had quite a few pierces (8-12 per flange, around 30 flanges as I recall so 360 pierces or so) in 3/4 so I was pleased with the single cartridge's performance. I expect similar results would be had with the Duramax stack.

Robert, I agree that it doesn’tmake sense to cut what I am with 85 amps. I do it because our power company would charge at least 100,000 to run 3p to my shop, after which o would need to spend a pile more on wiring. I’m not trying to be smart, I am simply trying to make my payments while feeding my four preschoolers and every where I can save is a bonus imo. In the job mentioned in the post segoman linked, I figure being able to change out only tip instead of an expensive cartridge saved me around $200 if I remember correctly I put 3 tips in that would have cost around 300 cad if sync. Now to be fair they were not shot but worn enough i they wouldn’t go thru the thick stuff as well. And I realize Hypertherm was-is not trying to cater to fellows like me that overuse our machines, however I am glad I got in the loop when the good old power max was still made!

I appreciate your responses and as I replied to others here and other forums - the cost is likely going to be higher. I believe that factored into the number of cut inches and other savings (time mainly) the cost increase is negligible. That would lead me down a whole different hole about job pricing and profit and overhead but that's not on topic in this thread! Just a quick tidbit..... If I'd been using the SYNC on your job and figured consumables into the job cost, I'd have figured in $460cad (25% overhead, 10% profit) into the selling price for the consumables netting a direct profit of $160cad to help cover those payments and kid costs!

4 PRESCHOOLERS!!???!! Figure out what's causing that and give it a rest for a second! GET THE TELEVISION FIXED!!!! LOL I have 8 kiddos but they range from 39 to 10! Best of luck in your endeavors, we all learn something new every day and use the good we can pick from the world to help us in our businesses and families. I bought my Powermax85 the December before the SYNC was released for the same reasons as you - I didn't know if I'd like the change! My experience now tells me that I really don't care much and wouldn't have minded having the SYNC. People are afraid of change, myself included - top of the list!

[SegoMan DeSigns]

Current prices from BakersGas / free freight minimum order / I normally buy master packs which saves even more money..

Electrodes $44 / 5 = $8.80

Nozzles $34 / 5 = 6.80

$6.80
$6.80
$8,80

---

$22.40 / 2 - $11.20 / change

Shield $18

Swirl ring $20

O-Rings (outsourced) $2
---

$40 / 10 = $4

$11.20 + $4.00 = $15.20 total per change

That is less than 1/3 of your SmartSYNC costs at $53 (to break even with the new system they would have to last 3.4 times longer)

So for every 10 changes of your SmartSnync you spend $530 and I only spend $153. If time is that important have a second stack of consumables ready to change out then clean / inspect old stack while cutting.

Upgraded cost breakdown from original numbers with new prices:

53 - 15 = $38 (additional sync costs)

If you change your consumables twice per:

Month that's $76 x 12 = $912 / yr
Week $76 x 52 = $3,952 / yr
Day $76 x 5 x 52 = $19,760 / yr

[cutnweld]

I guess if you can make more markup, why not? I'd like to see others charge rates, just for comparison and to see how to set my own rates etc

[rdj357]

I guess if you can make more markup, why not? I'd like to see others charge rates, just for comparison and to see how to set my own rates etc

From a business perspective, a comparison of rates with big geographical differences is not worth much. The formulas with which you arrive at your selling price as a business are, however, directly comparable.

A quick, oversimplified process would look like this:

Add up every dollar you spent on 'fixed' overhead items last year. Rent, electricity, water, gas, fuel, oil, maintenance and repairs, insurance, owner wages, employee bonuses, paid time off, unapplied labor costs (labor you cannot bill to a job), DEPRECIATION (just use straight line for this i.e. truck costs $80,000 with a 10 year life, $8,000 per year depreciation. Do this for all equipment and add to the total for the year - your CNC table, welders, etc - anything that wears out HAS TO BE REPLACED.

Take that number and divide by your total sales last year. This will give you your overhead percentage.

Now, add to that your desired profit margin. Maybe 15%? Up to you - this is company profit beyond paying owner wages or rent for an business owner owned property.

Take that number - say you had 25% overhead and want 15% profit, that's 40%. You now can use this to get a pricing DIVISOR. 100% minus 40% is 60% which as a decimal is 0.6

To calculate a job selling price:

Add up direct costs for the job:
actual labor costs for paid employees
cost of materials
shop supplies
CONSUMABLES (You can estimate specifically or use an annual average per hour of table operation, etc)
anything you have to write a check for to get this job done.

Divide that by the divisor of 0.6 and there's your selling price.

That's a lot oversimplified to keep this from being a novel, there are great books out there on business pricing for profit. Maybe some will have a recommendation? I don't recall the ones I've read that helped me the most over the years but I've read a bookshelf full!

[rick_b]

So after a few weeks of cutting, pierce wise this is what I am getting.
30-45a FINECUT? 210 to 1260 33 consumables
45A? 2521 to 2800 20 consumables
65A? 741 to 2220 25 consumables
85A? 1411 to 4700 10 consumables
All the consumables are EOL or have just stopped cutting and showing no errors, all consumables are worst to best. I have not worked out the average or hours cut as yet, but there are way more consumables on the low side than on the high side of pierces

[rdj357]

My FineCut numbers were similar to your shielded process numbers. The higher pierce heights really seemed to help the life of the cartridge. Have you verified that your height control system is achieving your settings? If it's not piercing at the correct book height it can really cause trouble.